What control system do you recommend? Control4 vs Savant or Creston?

[awallacevt]

I have the Control 4 system in my house and love it. I have video distribution tho all the rooms that need it. Two Roku, two Comcast, and my Kaleidescape. Also, audio throughout the house, outside and pool area. No issues, no lags. Customizable touchscreens and remotes.

My only experience with Crestron is in a professional aspect. I'm not a fan of it, but I am a theatrical lighting professional and don't deal with the programming of the Crestron. We usually just take triggers over UDP to control the lighting. I have not come across it in a residential scenario.

I am not familiar with Savant so cannot talk about that.

 

[PWMPine]

I have the Savant 4K 10Gig IP Video system distributing Apple TV 4K, Roku 4K and Strato. The quality if fantastic and the simplicity of pushing content around the house is much easier then logging into another local device and trying to find out where you left off. You will definite enjoy it.

 

[MikeKobb]

The quality if fantastic and the simplicity of pushing content around the house is much easier then logging into another local device and trying to find out where you left off.

To be clear, when speaking about Kaleidescape players, if you stop playback in one zone and then go to resume in another zone, the movie will pick up where you left off.

Regarding the OP's question, the media-over-IP systems that I'm familiar with employ some degree of image compression. Keep in mind that a 4K/60 HDMI connection requires an 18Gbps link, so even on a system that is using a 10Gbps Ethernet connection, some compression must be applied. It might be possible to use a mathematically lossless compression with a 10Gbps underlying link, but I don't know if anybody does that. Certainly the systems that use a 1Gbps Ethernet link must use lossy compression

The other factor to consider is audio. Does every zone in your house support lossless Dolby Atmos and DTS:X? Or does the media-over-IP system you're looking at include decode and down-mix functionality to provide a suitable audio signal to your other zones? If not, you could potentially find your audio "dumbed down" to the level of your lowest-quality zone.

For my own home use, I have a Strato player connected to my media-over-IP system (a Crestron NVX in my case, which uses 1Gbps Ethernet) that feeds all of the displays in my house except the theater. I have a dedicated Strato in the theater. Although I've never seen a noticeable artifact on the NVX-connected displays, I wasn't willing to accept anything other than a direct connection for my prime movie zone. Plus, all of my other zones are stereo, while my theater is of course not.

This is just my thinking on the subject. Others are certainly welcome to disagree.

 

[mikerpalmer]

Regarding the OP's question, the media-over-IP systems that I'm familiar with employ some degree of image compression. Keep in mind that a 4K/60 HDMI connection requires an 18Gbps link, so even on a system that is using a 10Gbps Ethernet connection, some compression must be applied. It might be possible to use a mathematically lossless compression with a 10Gbps underlying link, but I don't know if anybody does that. Certainly the systems that use a 1Gbps Ethernet link must use lossy compression

I have a Crestron MD-DM8X8 with 4kz cards and it uses direct links on it's own CAT6 cable. I think I read it has to apply compression on 4:4:4 or HDR content because it can't push the full 18 Gbps (and I think the backplane is limited to 12 Gbps). The challenge you brought up is a good one for IP based systems.

The other factor to consider is audio. Does every zone in your house support lossless Dolby Atmos and DTS:X? Or does the media-over-IP system you're looking at include decode and down-mix functionality to provide a suitable audio signal to your other zones? If not, you could potentially find your audio "dumbed down" to the level of your lowest-quality zone.

Also, another great point. I ran into this setting up my distro system. I use Sonos speakers and they don't support DTS:X and dumb down to a couple channel PCM. Same as you, I am willing to accept the downgrade because I have a dedicated Strata in my home theater.

To be clear, when speaking about Kaleidescape players, if you stop playback in one zone and then go to resume in another zone, the movie will pick up where you left off.

That was a great feature back in the day. Now, it's not a relevant. I do like the feature of just worrying about keeping a couple of central boxes (roku, Apple TV) units updated with latest software and login/passwords. Not a whole house full. Seems like every time a streaming box is updated, I need to re-log in to services.

 

[krocfamily]

Anyone want to venture a guess as to when Savant or other video distribution systems will upgrade to HDMI 2.1 as well as the Strato player and bump up to a 50-100Gbps network switch? It's probably leaning towards overkill, but most of the receivers coming out right now are set up for HDMI 2.1 and eventually everything having the capability. I'm just about to start building my house, so I have some time before I actually procure the hardware.

 

[CPickler]

I've worked with Crestron in multiple commercial spaces and played around with RTI and a few other systems at some friends' houses, but I personally chose Control4 for my home and family. Now, I will be the first to admit that I overwrote the local certificate and have gone in and managed my C4 system beyond what C4 "authorizes" end users to do. My dealer knows about it and I've actually taught their techs a few tricks just from some of the automations that you can program. At the end of the day it is absolutely whatever UI and experience you enjoy the most. C4, Crestron, Savant, RTI, etc. all can do an amazing job. It just is where do you want to spend your money and time.

 

[PWMPine]

To be clear, when speaking about Kaleidescape players, if you stop playback in one zone and then go to resume in another zone, the movie will pick up where you left off.

Regarding the OP's question, the media-over-IP systems that I'm familiar with employ some degree of image compression. Keep in mind that a 4K/60 HDMI connection requires an 18Gbps link, so even on a system that is using a 10Gbps Ethernet connection, some compression must be applied. It might be possible to use a mathematically lossless compression with a 10Gbps underlying link, but I don't know if anybody does that. Certainly the systems that use a 1Gbps Ethernet link must use lossy compression

The other factor to consider is audio. Does every zone in your house support lossless Dolby Atmos and DTS:X? Or does the media-over-IP system you're looking at include decode and down-mix functionality to provide a suitable audio signal to your other zones? If not, you could potentially find your audio "dumbed down" to the level of your lowest-quality zone.

For my own home use, I have a Strato player connected to my media-over-IP system (a Crestron NVX in my case, which uses 1Gbps Ethernet) that feeds all of the displays in my house except the theater. I have a dedicated Strato in the theater. Although I've never seen a noticeable artifact on the NVX-connected displays, I wasn't willing to accept anything other than a direct connection for my prime movie zone. Plus, all of my other zones are stereo, while my theater is of course not.

This is just my thinking on the subject. Others are certainly welcome to disagree.

I should have been more clear - K's ability to pick back up is great. My comment about simplicity to push content around is more pointed to watching show "X" via streaming service "Y" on device "Z". This can be a very frustrating experience even with an Apple TV on every display in the house.

 

[PWMPine]

Anyone want to venture a guess as to when Savant or other video distribution systems will upgrade to HDMI 2.1 as well as the Strato player and bump up to a 50-100Gbps network switch? It's probably leaning towards overkill, but most of the receivers coming out right now are set up for HDMI 2.1 and eventually everything having the capability. I'm just about to start building my house, so I have some time before I actually procure the hardware.

Good question - I am guessing there is going to have to be more sources and content pushing that level of output for these companies to justify it. To my knowledge K is the highest bitrate source for downloadable authorized content and it's not at HDMI 2.1 and Apple TV typically has highest bitrate for a streaming box and that's not 2.1. I am sure the chip shortage complicates all of this further. Would love to hear others thoughts on what that next level of a true 18GPS and higher really gets us in real world applications.

 

[MikeKobb]

I'm just about to start building my house, so I have some time before I actually procure the hardware.

Here's what I learned when I remodeled: you can never have too much empty conduit. I have empty flexible conduit to every TV location in my house, all running back to my central A/V equipment closet. This was in addition to pulling multiple twisted pair cables and coax (never used as it turns out) and so on. But that conduit gives you flexibility for future needs. If I need fiber or something someday, it can be done.

Also, the thing I screwed up: I didn't run wiring for motorized shades to my windows. Yes, you can do battery operated etc etc, but if I had run hard-wired, it would certainly have been easier.

 

[PWMPine]

Also, the thing I screwed up: I didn't run wiring for motorized shades to my windows. Yes, you can do battery operated etc etc, but if I had run hard-wired, it would certainly have been easier.

I totally second this comment - if you can run the shade wire then definitely do....changing batteries or recharging every few years is not the worst but I should have just wired

 

[CPickler]

I totally second this comment - if you can run the shade wire then definitely do....changing batteries or recharging every few years is not the worst but I should have just wired

Third this comment. I even got asked by the home automation company if I wanted this and said no. I regret it now dragging out the ladder to run an extension cord to recharge the shades.

 

[RAV]

I use Control4 and am very happy with it. It easily integrates to standard iPads and is very modular. I do prefer their SR-260 remote even though it is older (much better battery life and easier to use). The UI is easy and intuitive.

 

[krocfamily]

We have recently installed the Savant AV over IP 4k system in our home. We distribute 2 AppleTVs and 2 costarred KScape premiere/Strato players. The system works well. The fast switching is awesome but will not work with HDR so you must choose HDR or fast switching. The normal switching is not that slow though, a few seconds. The video and audio quality is excellent. The biggest problem we have faced, is one that others on this forum have faced, is getting all the components, extenders, and cables to play nice together to transmit the large signal needed. If they don't there are drop outs. For the price, we may have been better off just buying a Strato and AppleTV for each zone (we only use 4 zones). That would have save complexity and made things easier. But overall we are happy with it.

was there anything in particular that was tricky with the cables and components I should look out for? I'm looking to set up about 10 zones. Curious if people went with fiber or copper as well - I will have a few long runs? Thanks for any help, I'm looking to avoid issues, even though it will ultimately come down to my installer...

 

[Roderick Spode]

was there anything in particular that was tricky with the cables and components I should look out for? I'm looking to set up about 10 zones. Curious if people went with fiber or copper as well - I will have a few long runs? Thanks for any help, I'm looking to avoid issues, even though it will ultimately come down to my installer...

Our installer handled it all for us. The only problem we have had is using an 4k HDMI extender to reach a far TV (AVR is in AV closet not near TV). We have fiber from the the input transmitter to the 10gb switch, and then copper for everything else. Cat6 handles runs from the switch to the outputs and works well. To avoid the HDMI extender, I would probably keep the output transmitter, and thus the AVR, closer to the TV.

 

[MikeKobb]

I'm looking to set up about 10 zones.

Question: do you intend to have multichannel audio in all of those zones, or will you be doing something like I have at home, which is stereo in most zones, and multichannel in the theater?

I ask because in that case, you can place the media-over-IP receiver near the TV, but you can keep all of the audio within your centralized equipment rack, and use a multi-room amplifier to power the speakers.

 

[krocfamily]

Question: do you intend to have multichannel audio in all of those zones, or will you be doing something like I have at home, which is stereo in most zones, and multichannel in the theater?

I ask because in that case, you can place the media-over-IP receiver near the TV, but you can keep all of the audio within your centralized equipment rack, and use a multi-room amplifier to power the speakers.

I realize this is a kscape forum, but I figured with so many people with Savant systems, I'd cast a net out there to fish for any advice or pitfalls to watch out for with designing/integrating these systems. I want to be smart on this, to make sure my installer is doing it the most efficient/cost effective way that is upgradeable in the future. The plan is to locate as much of the hardware as possible in the rack room (building a dedicated room).

When I say zones, I'm specifically meaning TV's that I want the Savant IP video distributed to. I have 3 TVs that I want surround sound (one being a theater room), so I intend to purchase AV receivers (preamp/amp) for those areas. I have distributed audio planned for most every room inside/outside the house. The TVs that don't have receivers will utilize the downmixed audio over AVB for TV sound. I don't know how that actually works, but I expect its just programming intensive to get it all working properly.

I realize this is a kscape forum, but I figured with so many people with Savant systems, I'd cast a net out there to fish for any advice or pitfalls to watch out for with designing/integrating these systems.

My original intention was not to distribute the video, and just use Apple TVs at each location, since that is what I have now and it works pretty well for our needs with soundbars. Then, next think you know, I'm selecting sonance invisible speakers and ditching soundbars and back to video over IP. I was lucky enough to see a demo of the Savant video IP system and thought it was great, and then also a kscape movie at the sonance studio, which changed my mind on just having Apple TVs.... so, it spiraled.

 

[cinelife]

I realize this is a kscape forum, but I figured with so many people with Savant systems, .......

While it is the "Kaleidescape Owner's Forum," we're open to all discussions related to AV and improving the experience for members, sharing info is why we are all here!

Jim

 

[krocfamily]

While it is the "Kaleidescape Owner's Forum," we're open to all discussions related to AV and improving the experience for members, sharing info is why we are all here!

Jim

that's great, appreciate that. Hearing from experts who have the products in their homes is the best way to learn!

 

[TrackZ]

I have Control4. I mostly like it. I plan to start making some YouTube content more focused on it coming up.

 

[MikeKobb]

My original intention was not to distribute the video, and just use Apple TVs at each location, since that is what I have now and it works pretty well for our needs with soundbars. Then, next think you know, I'm selecting sonance invisible speakers and ditching soundbars and back to video over IP.

I think you'll find that you like this, because it allows you to have the same source playing simultaneously in multiple rooms. Certainly, when it's time for me to do house cleaning, I put something up on YouTube and send it to all my TVs so I can enjoy listening to it as I move from room to room. That wasn't possible when I had dedicated Apple TVs in each room.

With that said, I live alone, so I don't have a use case that calls for different content in different rooms. If you foresee a time when you may have one family member in one room watching something, and another watching something different in another room, then you can just have multiple source devices in the rack. I think one common approach is to have one for each family member, and then they can select "their" Apple TV or Kaleidescape player or whatnot and be assured that they won't conflict with anybody else.