Comparisons: Valuing Other Metrics

[RAGJr]

With all the hoopla around encoding issues, an issue I’m very new to and admittedly don’t fully understand, I want to express my opinion on something different; utility metrics.

I’ve seen many posts questioning the decision to purchase a film due to a possible concern about an issue or two with a specific frame or scene not being perfect. I’ve also seen posts, here and on other forums, regarding “but Kscape doesn’t have all of the titles and is inferior to disc players” that only “true collectors” can appreciate. While it’s true, I don’t consider myself to be a “true collector,” I’m just an enthusiast who values creature comforts and nice things; my considerations are equally as valid. This brings me to my point about utility metrics. I value:

• The freed space by not having to store hundreds or thousands of discs. I can measure the physical space no longer needed to house the discs and their packaging. “True collectors” must always keep everything with the disc to keep maintain the collectability; the case, the inserts, the slice of plastic wrap, everything. With Kscape, I can comfortably measure the ample wall space no longer occupied by shelves and use it for something else; wonderful!
• The time and money saved by not having to go to the store and buy a disc, if you can even find them locally anymore. Best Buy doesn’t carry them. The local malls either no longer exist or have music/movie shops like they once did. If I’m going to buy online and pay and wait for shipping, that’s a delay. Even worse, when it arrives I have to deal with discarding the packaging, and I really do hate breaking down boxes; my wife already overwhelms with Amazon and Ulta boxes on a weekly basis.
• The time and frustration saved by not playing HDMI roulette to get the BD player running nicely with all of the other equipment. Moreover, not having to physically get up, walk around and find the disc I want, open the media cabinet, pop out the disc tray and get it started. Kscape is a few seconds and I can start enjoying it.
• The ability to have multiple players using a single source. My wife can be watching something in the living room and I down in the gym. If we were using discs, we’d need two copies to do the same thing, or more likely just watch different things, which, albeit, is most likely, but still an interesting corner-case if we’re both trying to use our time efficiently and catch-up on something together while not actually being together.
• The pure ease and convenience of ordering. I get that not everything is available through Kscape, but there is a HUGE amount that is. I’ve purchased several old, odd or obscure titles and watched them minutes later through Kscape. Some things are not easily found on streaming platforms, and I wouldn’t even know where to begin trying to find disc versions. Kscape is just easy to buy and use and I really appreciate this aspect.

I’m sure there are even more things I’m not thinking about at the moment, but my point is that while I value and appreciate the work others are doing with pointing out certain areas of improvement, I don’t think these are the be-all-end-all of things that matter. Further, I really don’t think such things should prevent people from using and enjoying the system and its offerings. I’ve watched many titles on Kscape now and have been thoroughly impressed. I’m surprised to learn after the fact that something I’ve seen is “plagued with problems” when I didn’t observe anything and came away happy with my experience. I guess I’m just a simpleton, but I still have my opinions and considerations of other metrics of value, as does everyone else. To those holding off on using or buying something because of the potential let down, I suggest trying it and if that’s how you really feel afterwards, then at least you know for certain; but you may walk away happy and entertained just as I have.

That said, what are some other aspects or characteristics of Kscape not commonly discussed that you find useful and have good utility value? Let’s share and learn from one another and build a stronger product and community.

 

[artur9]

When browsing the store, I like how it groups similar titles. That makes finding an unseen and unknown title much easier than searching...searching....searching.

I know the shuffling drives some crazy and I can understand why that is less desirable, perhaps, for already owned movies. On the store, it's great!

 

[Naiera]

UHD Blu-ray players are no more “HDMI roulette” than a K-Scape. Not sure where you got that impression. I had to move the video output from my Strato last night because the HDMI switch I had it connected to didn’t seem to like it.

 

[mkozlows]

The thing about convenience vs. discs is that if all you want is streaming convenience, you can already have that with an Apple TV, with a lot more selection, for a lot less money. The value-add of Kscape over streaming really is the image/sound quality, and the value prop of the whole ecosystem really rests on that quality being high.

 

[JonProphet]

The thing about convenience vs. discs is that if all you want is streaming convenience, you can already have that with an Apple TV, with a lot more selection, for a lot less money. The value-add of Kscape over streaming really is the image/sound quality, and the value prop of the whole ecosystem really rests on that quality being high.

I hear you there.

Excellent thread.

I agree with everything said. I do value the quality over streaming. Audio especially. I don’t like chasing movies I own across multiple platforms. Also don’t really enjoy owning multiple copies….

But this from a guy who still
Has a descent sized HD-DVD library.

 

[Broncowrangler]

For me the biggest attraction to K was the ability to consume high fidelity content, barely after the theatrical run and months before they arrive on the physical platform. I find the idea of forking out $30 chips for a streaming version, quite unacceptable.

With that being said, I have a significant collection of physical media (and rips), especially titles which are missing an immersive mix on K. Lack of an immersive mix, is non negotiable for an audio-centric person like me. Complete experience (speaking exclusively from my perspective) means both video and audio firing on all cylinders.

IMHO both physical media and Kscape can co-exist in perfect harmony.

 

[JonProphet]

For me the biggest attraction to K was the ability to consume high fidelity content, barely after the theatrical run and months before they arrive on the physical platform. I find the idea of forking out $30 chips for a streaming version, quite unacceptable.

With that being said, I have a significant collection of physical media (and rips), especially titles which are missing an immersive mix on K. Lack of an immersive mix, is non negotiable for an audio-centric person like me. Complete experience (speaking exclusively from my perspective) means both video and audio firing on all cylinders.

IMHO both physical media and Kscape can co-exist in perfect harmony.

Are you talking about Atmos or X for the mix?

 

[Broncowrangler]

Are you talking about Atmos or X for the mix?

Either one. They’re both immersive.

Plus if you want to count Auro-3d. I have all the bases covered for that as well; mostly sourced from Europe.

 

[JonProphet]

Either one. They’re both immersive.

Plus if you want to count Auro-3d. I have all the bases covered for that as well; mostly sourced from Europe.

So that was supposed to be an and not an or.

Which leads me into my next question, care to list titles that are on that list? Doesn’t have to be exhaustive but top of the charts so to say.

 

[Broncowrangler]

So that was supposed to be an and not an or.

Which leads me into my next question, care to list titles that are on that list? Doesn’t have to be exhaustive but top of the charts so to say.

You can go to Blu-ray.com and find the list of titles which support atmos and dts:X. They have a well rounded list out there.

The most glaring example (imho) is Apollo 13 which supports a reference dts:X mix on the disc. Then you have the OG Superman (1978) and The Raid Redemption with amazing atmos tracks, but only 5.1 on K.

 

[HiFiHippie]

You can go to Blu-ray.com and find the list of titles which support atmos and dts:X. They have a well rounded list out there.

The most glaring example (imho) is Apollo 13 which supports a reference dts:X mix on the disc. Then you have the OG Superman (1978) and The Raid Redemption with amazing atmos tracks, but only 5.1 on K.

Please update Apollo 13 with a cinematic 4k and dtsX or Dolby Atmos soundtrack

 

[artur9]

Please update Apollo 13 with a cinematic 4k and dtsX or Dolby Atmos soundtrack

Would it be valuable to send these sorts of pleas to movies@kaleidescape.com?

 

[Roobot]

To me, it's simple: Kaleidescape offers disc-or-better quality with the convenience of an all-digital solution. No waiting on shipping, no sold out discs, no discs with playback issues, instant playback without getting out of your chair.

Other features like pre-made scenes and scripts are fun, too. It's also easier to shop and buy things on sale via a centralized store and wishlist.

Are there gaps in title availability/conversions (for various complicated reasons) and a feature or two I wish it had? Sure. But I've still bought and watched way more movies in my first year of ownership than I ever thought I would, and that speaks volumes about the value and convenience to me.

 

[MarvinTheAndroid]

I am not going to weigh in on this thread as I can see it going south quite quickly. However, I would humbly suggest that any thread of this nature that doesn't start off framed as an unbiased and balanced view of both the pros and cons of the K ecosystem, or parts thereof, is ultimately doomed for failure. I suspect that any thread orientated just around pros is as likely to end up in the same position as other threads who only seem focussed on the cons. I will now make my exit.

 

[Brody]

With all the hoopla around encoding issues, an issue I’m very new to and admittedly don’t fully understand, I want to express my opinion on something different; utility metrics.

I’ve seen many posts questioning the decision to purchase a film due to a possible concern about an issue or two with a specific frame or scene not being perfect. I’ve also seen posts, here and on other forums, regarding “but Kscape doesn’t have all of the titles and is inferior to disc players” that only “true collectors” can appreciate. While it’s true, I don’t consider myself to be a “true collector,” I’m just an enthusiast who values creature comforts and nice things; my considerations are equally as valid. This brings me to my point about utility metrics. I value:

• The freed space by not having to store hundreds or thousands of discs. I can measure the physical space no longer needed to house the discs and their packaging. “True collectors” must always keep everything with the disc to keep maintain the collectability; the case, the inserts, the slice of plastic wrap, everything. With Kscape, I can comfortably measure the ample wall space no longer occupied by shelves and use it for something else; wonderful!
• The time and money saved by not having to go to the store and buy a disc, if you can even find them locally anymore. Best Buy doesn’t carry them. The local malls either no longer exist or have music/movie shops like they once did. If I’m going to buy online and pay and wait for shipping, that’s a delay. Even worse, when it arrives I have to deal with discarding the packaging, and I really do hate breaking down boxes; my wife already overwhelms with Amazon and Ulta boxes on a weekly basis.
• The time and frustration saved by not playing HDMI roulette to get the BD player running nicely with all of the other equipment. Moreover, not having to physically get up, walk around and find the disc I want, open the media cabinet, pop out the disc tray and get it started. Kscape is a few seconds and I can start enjoying it.
• The ability to have multiple players using a single source. My wife can be watching something in the living room and I down in the gym. If we were using discs, we’d need two copies to do the same thing, or more likely just watch different things, which, albeit, is most likely, but still an interesting corner-case if we’re both trying to use our time efficiently and catch-up on something together while not actually being together.
• The pure ease and convenience of ordering. I get that not everything is available through Kscape, but there is a HUGE amount that is. I’ve purchased several old, odd or obscure titles and watched them minutes later through Kscape. Some things are not easily found on streaming platforms, and I wouldn’t even know where to begin trying to find disc versions. Kscape is just easy to buy and use and I really appreciate this aspect.

I’m sure there are even more things I’m not thinking about at the moment, but my point is that while I value and appreciate the work others are doing with pointing out certain areas of improvement, I don’t think these are the be-all-end-all of things that matter. Further, I really don’t think such things should prevent people from using and enjoying the system and its offerings. I’ve watched many titles on Kscape now and have been thoroughly impressed. I’m surprised to learn after the fact that something I’ve seen is “plagued with problems” when I didn’t observe anything and came away happy with my experience. I guess I’m just a simpleton, but I still have my opinions and considerations of other metrics of value, as does everyone else. To those holding off on using or buying something because of the potential let down, I suggest trying it and if that’s how you really feel afterwards, then at least you know for certain; but you may walk away happy and entertained just as I have.

That said, what are some other aspects or characteristics of Kscape not commonly discussed that you find useful and have good utility value? Let’s share and learn from one another and build a stronger product and community.

Yup.

As a new Kscape user I vibe with most of that.

It’s astonishing how much rancour Kscape producers among many home theatre enthusiasts. They see the price and they don’t just think “ well I don’t value that enough to pay those prices.” Instead many leap from the fact it doesn’t suit their personal value metric to “ it’s a rip off and anybody who would purchase this thing as a sucker.” “ I can do this 20 times cheaper with my own server and ripping discs !!!” It’s like it literally breaks some people’s brains, not allowing them to think outside their own circumstances and criteria.

I’m a long time home theatre enthusiast and I’ve owned fairly large physical collections of DVD and Blu-ray and I still have over 100 HD DVDs.

But I simply got sick of physical media for all the reasons people here would recognize.
I built up a big Blu-ray disc library, but didn’t want to deal with the hassle of discs anymore. So I was stuck with the fact that I wanted to jump into the 4K UHD world and get the best quality fed to my projector and sound system as possible, yet I didn’t want to keep bringing new discs into the house in terms of upgrading to the 4K discs.

And the very last thing I wanted to do was set up my own server and spend my time ripping discs. I absolutely hated the amount of time I spent having to do that ripping my large CD library to my server, and if possible never wanted to go through that hassle again.

That’s why the Strato E has been such a perfect solution for me.

Also, a lot of people forget how even seemingly minor reductions of “user friction” can alter a user experience.

The sheer ease of use and access I get from the Kscape system has already made playing my physical discs feel clunky and antiquated.
I also feel more in touch with the movies I have purchased on Kscape - the way I can see them all instantly and access them all quickly, has made me watch even more movies.

I’ve long used the My Movies to catalogue my physical discs, and to be able to peruse my movie collection to select what to watch.

But the ease of Kscape has made even that feel a little bit more friction. The My Movies app feels just one step removed from my actual physical collection, like a list of my movies and then when I select when I want to watch, I still have to go rustle through my movies in the cabinet, go through the physical active playing the movie, usually sitting through some unskippable content.

The way the display of my movies in Kscape also provide provides immediate access to those movies improves the experience.

I’m not saying I’ve given up playing physical discs as actually I’ve been playing a few of my old Ray Harryhausen movies on disc lately and that’s been fun.

But I certainly will always search for a Kscape version first of a movie now before physical disc.

 

[DrNeal]

I second that it.
It already looks and sounds great, looking forward to the upgrade

 

[OCD2]

I don't understand why there is a constant "need" for K owners to shill for the K system. Is it to justify the expense? Why criticize those who want to burn disks? Everyone has his/her own reasons for buying in and either liking or not liking it. There is no doubt that it's expensive which for some people is a red line. But not for others.

I'm personally tired of "first time user posts" that spend pages attempting to justify their financial layout usually while criticizing others who have made a different decision. I chose to buy in mostly for the convenience factor, but I'm frugal and try not to go overboard. Lots of pros and cons. But again, that is my choice, and I really don't care what the rest of you think about it. All of us were first time users at some point. You're not telling us things we don't already know.

Another pet peeve of mine is the emphasis on Atmos. I get the impression that many here rate the sound codec as the primary reason for buying and watching a certain movie. People can rank movies however they like, but it seems that for some users listening to Atmos can make a plough horse look like Secretariat. Atmos is available on disks and not exclusively on K. It's not a reason to buy K, although any sound codec above PCM is a reason for K or disks over low-end streaming. Over the years I've wasted money on many movies and audio files that supposedly have outstanding sound only to be disappointed with the recommendation and subsequently filing them in the "waste of money" folder. For example, Roma is a great movie (English subtitles as it's in Spanish) IMO with excellent Atmos but probably not the type of "explosive" Atmos that many on here seek. And it is not available on K. When users rate movies primarily on sound, I wish they would "come clean" and state "Excellent Atmos track but the movie otherwise sucks." Same with video - most newer movies have excellent video so unless the cinematography is very creative or extraordinarily beautiful, I don't see the need to rave about the sharpness which might not be the director's intent anyway.

 

[DrNeal]

I agree wholeheartedly. I don’t see or hear all the bad things that people complain about.
Yes some movies look and sound better than others, but that is usually due to the original source.
I have really enjoyed Kaleidescape and certainly the new K.
In fact the more upgrades that I have made to my systems the better the picture and sound, as evidenced by a new projector and amplifier.
Everyone who visits is extremely impressed and state that I should charge money, ha ha.

 

[JonProphet]

I don't understand why there is a constant "need" for K owners to shill for the K system. Is it to justify the expense? Why criticize those who want to burn disks? Everyone has his/her own reasons for buying in and either liking or not liking it. There is no doubt that it's expensive which for some people is a red line. But not for others.

I'm personally tired of "first time user posts" that spend pages attempting to justify their financial layout usually while criticizing others who have made a different decision. I chose to buy in mostly for the convenience factor, but I'm frugal and try not to go overboard. Lots of pros and cons. But again, that is my choice, and I really don't care what the rest of you think about it. All of us were first time users at some point. You're not telling us things we don't already know.

Another pet peeve of mine is the emphasis on Atmos. I get the impression that many here rate the sound codec as the primary reason for buying and watching a certain movie. People can rank movies however they like, but it seems that for some users listening to Atmos can make a plough horse look like Secretariat. Atmos is available on disks and not exclusively on K. It's not a reason to buy K, although any sound codec above PCM is a reason for K or disks over low-end streaming. Over the years I've wasted money on many movies and audio files that supposedly have outstanding sound only to be disappointed with the recommendation and subsequently filing them in the "waste of money" folder. For example, Roma is a great movie (English subtitles as it's in Spanish) IMO with excellent Atmos but probably not the type of "explosive" Atmos that many on here seek. And it is not available on K. When users rate movies primarily on sound, I wish they would "come clean" and state "Excellent Atmos track but the movie otherwise sucks." Same with video - most newer movies have excellent video so unless the cinematography is very creative or extraordinarily beautiful, I don't see the need to rave about the sharpness which might not be the director's intent anyway.

Welcome to block. Your overwhelming negative posts have become tiresome and unwelcome. The previous post is a borderline attack on that person's post. Your opinion on any further discussions are no longer needed from my point of view.

The thing about convenience vs. discs is that if all you want is streaming convenience, you can already have that with an Apple TV, with a lot more selection, for a lot less money. The value-add of Kscape over streaming really is the image/sound quality, and the value prop of the whole ecosystem really rests on that quality being high.

I kind of agree with you. Convenience is high with K-Scape, shopping the store is easy and straight forward. What I own and my wish lists are easily accessible.

Quality is arguably better. Sound quality, which is important to me, is far superior than streaming. Last night I watched Prometheus on ATV 4K. I had to turn the volume up way higher than my normal volume with disc and K-Scape. Then the audio had this hollow empty feeling because it was lossy. This isn't a hard fast "this is the way" statement, it is my opinion. Yes it was Atmos and it did provide a adequate sound track but barely. For me even though I have a brand new state of the art projector, I feel that my K-Scape player is not the bottleneck when it comes to the visuals and the audio. With streaming, the service is the bottleneck.

I'm starting to look more into Movies Anywhere again, but why would I spread my resources across multiple platforms? MA is just a portal to other stores.

I'm currently looking into alternatives for movies that K doesn't have on the store in 4K. Spawn, Risky Business, etc....

 

[artur9]

...

I'm personally tired of "first time user posts" that spend pages attempting to justify their financial layout usually while criticizing others who have made a different decision. ...

I kind of enjoy hearing people's reasons for going K. hst, imo, the best "newby" posts are the ones that along the lines of "I just got K and X-Y-Z doesn't make sense, how do I do A-B-C".

In terms of Atmos, my main system is just 7.1 and I haven't experienced anything noteworthy in Atmos, even with the demo videos.

...

I'm currently looking into alternatives for movies that K doesn't have on the store in 4K. Spawn, Risky Business, etc....

You'll need 2 solutions, I think:
1) Movies that can be streamed that K doesn't stock.
2) Movies that cannot be streamed from anywhere, disc only. (If you're happy with 1080p, cobble together a Premiere system?)