Strato V: UI resolution limited to 1080, not 4k!

[JWort93]

@MikeKobb Does the Strato V not render its UI in 4K like the older Stratos? I just set mine up, and while the web interface and my TV are showing a 4K signal is being sent/received, the UI is significantly softer looking than my existing Strato C. It definitely looks like it's being rendered at 1080p and then upscaled to 4K, not being rendered natively at 4K.

 

[Trevor]

@MikeKobb Does the Strato V not render its UI in 4K like the older Stratos? I just set mine up, and while the web interface and my TV are showing a 4K signal, the UI is significantly softer looking than my existing Strato C. It definitely looks like it's being rendered at 1080p and then upscaled to 4K, not being rendered natively at 4K.

I noticed the same thing - 4K60 4:4:4 and it still looks rough.

On the good side, cold boot time seems to be halved.

 

[MikeKobb]

@MikeKobb Does the Strato V not render its UI in 4K like the older Stratos? I just set mine up, and while the web interface and my TV are showing a 4K signal is being sent/received, the UI is significantly softer looking than my existing Strato C. It definitely looks like it's being rendered at 1080p and then upscaled to 4K, not being rendered natively at 4K.

That's correct. The graphics engine in the new System-on-Chip is natively 1080p. When connected to a 4K display, it is then scaled up in hardware. We are aware of an issue that affects the quality of the image in CinemaScape modes in particular. This was a bug that is already fixed internally and the fix is expected to be in the next kOS update.

Just to head off any question that might arise: video playback is natively full 4K resolution.

 

[HarperVision]

We are aware of an issue that affects the quality of the image in CinemaScape modes in particular. This was a bug that is already fixed internally and the fix is expected to be in the next kOS update.

Is this the bug I am seeing whereas when I play a multi-aspect ratio movie while in an anamorphic mode using a lens, when scenes are 16:9 they appear normal, but then when they switch to scope 2.35:1 it is letterboxed on all four sides?

I am seeing this with Aquaman and I believe Top Gun: Maverick.

It’s as if the KScape system (or just the V) is seeing it as only a 16:9 aspect ratio movie and not realizing there are 2.35:1 aspect scenes in it. So no auto switching.

 

[JWort93]

That's correct. The graphics engine in the new System-on-Chip is natively 1080p. When connected to a 4K display, it is then scaled up in hardware. We are aware of an issue that affects the quality of the image in CinemaScape modes in particular. This was a bug that is already fixed internally and the fix is expected to be in the next kOS update.

Just to head off any question that might arise: video playback is natively full 4K resolution.

Disappointing, I would love if that could somehow be fixed in the future, but from the sounds of it, that may not be likely.

I did notice a much bigger issue just now though. It seems as though there is very noticeable edge enhancement/over sharpening that is happening to the image on the Strato V, that does not happen on the Strato C.

I attached two sets of photos from the same scenes of the same movie, played back through the same input on my TV so the TV settings are the same (different inputs on my receiver, and just doing the switching there).

The first of each is from the Strato C, the second of each is from the Strato V.

In the first pair of images, on the Strato V, there is a very noticeable "hot" edge caused by over sharpening on the bottom of the picture, that is not there on the Strato C.

In the second pair, which is showing text during the title card of the movie, there is very noticeable ringing on the text of the Strato V that is not there on the Strato C.

Has this been noticed internally before?

 

[HarperVision]

I did notice a much bigger issue just now though. It seems as though there is very noticeable edge enhancement/over sharpening that is happening to the image on the Strato V, that does not happen on the Strato C.

I did think I saw something similar (white outlines on pant legs) on Max’s legs as he’s standing there facing away from the camera, next to his car and just before he steps on the lizard and eats it, in the beginning of Fury Road.

Can someone else test this scene. I don’t have a C, just the V.

 

[MikeKobb]

Is this the bug I am seeing whereas when I play a multi-aspect ratio movie while in an anamorphic mode using a lens, when scenes are 16:9 they appear normal, but then when they switch to scope 2.35:1 it is letterboxed on all four sides?

I am seeing this with Aquaman and I believe Top Gun: Maverick.

It’s as if the KScape system (or just the V) is seeing it as only a 16:9 aspect ratio movie and not realizing there are 2.35:1 aspect scenes in it. So no auto switching.

No, these are unrelated. Kaleidescape systems don’t support changing screen masking / scaling mid-movie. A movie like Maverick is bookmarked as the tallest (“most open”) aspect ratio and then any scenes at a higher ratio are letterboxed.

Unfortunately, these mixed-IMAX films are really not designed to be shown on 2.40 screens.

The best option is probably to manually set your system up to treat this movie as 2.40 and accept cropping of the IMAX scenes. This is what would have been done if the movie was screened in a commercial 2.40 theater. There’s another active thread here on the forum discussing this in more detail. I’m traveling at the moment or I would link it here. If you search for Maverick I expect that you’ll find it.

 

[MikeKobb]

Has this been noticed internally before?

There is a known issue related to this, yes. There is some fine-tuning of the video pipeline that is being looked at right now to address it. We’ll add this scene as one of our test cases.

 

[ZeroDarkFuga]

There is a known issue related to this, yes. There is some fine-tuning of the video pipeline that is being looked at right now to address it. We’ll add this scene as one of our test cases.

@MikeKobb , just a thank you again for keeping us up to date and being honest.

I personally really appreciate K-Scape support team taking feedback like this (much like MadVR team, no sales plug, just personal experience) from our forum group.

As a primarily OLED display K user for the Strato V, I wouldn’t have picked up on some of these issues so good to be both educated and seeing them addressed and added to the list quickly across the board…..

 

[JWort93]

There is a known issue related to this, yes. There is some fine-tuning of the video pipeline that is being looked at right now to address it. We’ll add this scene as one of our test cases.

Thanks @MikeKobb! Want to echo @ZeroDarkFuga 's sentiments, really appreciate you guys listening to all the feedback and answering questions on the forums here. There aren't too many companies that have any where near this level of customer engagement, and it's just one more thing that makes Kaleidescape feel as special of a product and company as it is.

 

[Jin-X]

Disappointing, I would love if that could somehow be fixed in the future, but from the sounds of it, that may not be likely.

I did notice a much bigger issue just now though. It seems as though there is very noticeable edge enhancement/over sharpening that is happening to the image on the Strato V, that does not happen on the Strato C.

I attached two sets of photos from the same scenes of the same movie, played back through the same input on my TV so the TV settings are the same (different inputs on my receiver, and just doing the switching there).

The first of each is from the Strato C, the second of each is from the Strato V.

In the first pair of images, on the Strato V, there is a very noticeable "hot" edge caused by over sharpening on the bottom of the picture, that is not there on the Strato C.

In the second pair, which is showing text during the title card of the movie, there is very noticeable ringing on the text of the Strato V that is not there on the Strato C.

Has this been noticed internally before?

Oh yeah that definitely needs to be fixed.

Disappointing, I would love if that could somehow be fixed in the future, but from the sounds of it, that may not be likely.

I did notice a much bigger issue just now though. It seems as though there is very noticeable edge enhancement/over sharpening that is happening to the image on the Strato V, that does not happen on the Strato C.

I attached two sets of photos from the same scenes of the same movie, played back through the same input on my TV so the TV settings are the same (different inputs on my receiver, and just doing the switching there).

The first of each is from the Strato C, the second of each is from the Strato V.

In the first pair of images, on the Strato V, there is a very noticeable "hot" edge caused by over sharpening on the bottom of the picture, that is not there on the Strato C.

In the second pair, which is showing text during the title card of the movie, there is very noticeable ringing on the text of the Strato V that is not there on the Strato C.

Has this been noticed internally before?

The UI being upscaled 1080p is a letdown as the native clean 4k UI on the Apple TV is very nice and elegant. But the video output absolutely has to be cleanly outputting the source material, this definitely has to be fixed quickly.

I’m wondering, are your settings doing chroma upsampling? Wonder if you set it to passthrough the signal as is, like leaving it as 4:2:0, if the issue goes away.

 

[Rengozu]

That's correct. The graphics engine in the new System-on-Chip is natively 1080p. When connected to a 4K display, it is then scaled up in hardware.

Is this only when using the V by itself? Like will it go back to the old way if you have a Terra connected to it?

 

[JWort93]

Oh yeah that definitely needs to be fixed.

The UI being upscaled 1080p is a letdown as the native clean 4k UI on the Apple TV is very nice and elegant. But the video output absolutely has to be cleanly outputting the source material, this definitely has to be fixed quickly.

I’m wondering, are your settings doing chroma upsampling? Wonder if you set it to passthrough the signal as is, like leaving it as 4:2:0, if the issue goes away.

Good call, I meant to test that. With those screenshots, it was 4:4:4. I just tested forcing it to 4:2:2, and 4:2:0 (setting it to minimize display mode changes so it outputs in 4K 60Hz HDR, and limiting the HDMI bandwidth to 13.5Gbps, since there is no way to get 24Hz 4:2:0 on it), and both 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 exhibited the same oversharpening/edge enhancement effect I was seeing at 4:4:4. So it doesn't seem related to the chroma upsampling performed by the device.

 

[JWort93]

Is this only when using the V by itself? Like will it go back to the old way if you have a Terra connected to it?

Nope, at least not with my Terra (albeit, it is an original Terra, not a Terra prime). When connected it still renders the UI at 1080p.

 

[MikeKobb]

Is this only when using the V by itself? Like will it go back to the old way if you have a Terra connected to it?

No, the player is responsible for doing the rendering, so it behaves the same whether it’s standalone or part of a system.

 

[Mr_X]

No, the player is responsible for doing the rendering, so it behaves the same whether it’s standalone or part of a system.

Perhaps it’s just me but can’t help but feel this is a bit of an oversight that the V can’t render it in 4k.

A lot of us are buying this for large panel OLEDS and are also big fans of the K movie wall. To know that will be at 1080p and can’t be fixed (I think is what you’re saying) on a big flat panel is disappoint.

It’s not a deal breaker as I love the system but a big shame for a premium product.

 

[ZeroDarkFuga]

Perhaps it’s just me but can’t help but feel this is a bit of an oversight that the V can’t render it in 4k.

A lot of us are buying this for large panel OLEDS and are also big fans of the K movie wall. To know that will be at 1080p and can’t be fixed (I think is what you’re saying) on a big flat panel is disappoint.

It’s not a deal breaker as I love the system but a big shame for a premium product.

I believe @MikeKobb stated video playback is rendered natively in 4K but we may be discussing different issues if you are just referring to the UI.

For what it’s worth, I had issues with Strato C doing similar on the UI but to be fair, I was running everything through an AC-MX-42X avpro edge switch to a MadVR MK2 and I believe the switch was causing issues moreso with this than the Strato C….

 

[JWort93]

I believe @MikeKobb stated video playback is rendered natively in 4K but we may be discussing different issues if you are just referring to the UI.

For what it’s worth, I had issues with Strato C doing similar on the UI but to be fair, I was running everything through an AC-MX-42X avpro edge switch to a MadVR MK2 and I believe the switch was causing issues moreso with this than the Strato C….

That's strange, looking at that switch, I don't see any reason it would have trouble passing through full bandwidth 4K 60 for crisp 4K menus/content.

I will say, a while back, the processing pipeline of the Lumagen Radiance Pro was limited at 4K 60 18Gbps speeds, which caused the image not be perfectly sharp (it was fine at lower bandwidths used by lower frame rate content like movies, so wasn't a huge deal), which resulted in 4K 60 menus like the older Strato's looking less sharp than they should have. They fixed that a couple years back when they rewrote the pipeline (the beauty of FPGAs), and since then 4K 60 content and menus look pin sharp like they should. Maybe the MadVR was experiencing similar limitations with 18Gbps signals?

 

[ZeroDarkFuga]

That's strange, looking at that switch, I don't see any reason it would have trouble passing through full bandwidth 4K 60 for crisp 4K menus/content.

I will say, a while back, the processing pipeline of the Lumagen Radiance Pro was limited at 4K 60 18Gbps speeds, which caused the image not be perfectly sharp (it was fine at lower bandwidths used by lower frame rate content like movies, so wasn't a huge deal), which resulted in 4K 60 menus like the older Strato's looking less sharp than they should have. They fixed that a couple years back when they rewrote the pipeline (the beauty of FPGAs), and since then 4K 60 content and menus look pin sharp like they should. Maybe the MadVR was experiencing similar limitations with 18Gbps signals?

You could be correct, I think it was probably moreso myself splitting Video and Audio separately (which is now not possible with the Strato V).

For what it's worth, I'm not sure what HDMI enhancements specifically were made (waiting on @MikeKobb HW team detail!) but I can say that every movie and/or scene that had issues on my Strato C I have tested on the Strato V and did not encounter those similar issues.

I do think whatever HDMI enhancements specifically were made (or maybe the HD re-encoding) was most definitely positive but understand still issues to iron out in future updates with new HW as other members have detailed and are being noted by the support team.....

 

[JWort93]

You could be correct, I think it was probably moreso myself splitting Video and Audio separately (which is now not possible with the Strato V).

For what it's worth, I'm not sure what HDMI enhancements specifically were made (waiting on @MikeKobb HW team detail!) but I can say that every movie and/or scene that had issues on my Strato C I have tested on the Strato V and did not encounter those similar issues.

I do think whatever HDMI enhancements specifically were made (or maybe the HD re-encoding) was most definitely positive but understand still issues to iron out in future updates with new HW as other members have detailed and are being noted by the support team.....

Pure speculation on my part, as it's honestly hard to tell without test patterns, but given the age of the prior chip, I have a feeling the biggest improvement was probably in chroma upsampling. Early generation 4K chips often used nearest-neighbor chroma upsampling (I.E. the Oppo UDP-203), which made upsampling fine chroma detail somewhat blocky. Newer ones are using bilinear scaling or some type of filtered chroma upsampling, which results in smoother chroma fine detail. In real world content it's fairly hard to tell a difference in most cases TBH, but it can result in some fine detail improvements.