Strato and HDR

[RAV]

My understanding is that UHD content is intended to deliver four significant benefits:

- 4K (more pixels)
- High Dynamic Range (greater range of luminosity)
- Wide Color Gamut (REC 2020; larger color space)
- 10-Bit Color Depth (more colors; less banding)

A number of people, myself included, that have tried the Samsung UBD-K8500 UHD Blu-ray player have been very disappointed with the picture - especially those of us using projectors.

The culprit seems to be HDR. Apparently there is no real standard for grading HDR10 (so it is very hard to dial in a consistently good picture) and the great majority of projectors simply don't have the light output to correctly display HDR.

Quite a few people (that understand the issues much better than I) are saying that what is really needed is an option to display 4K content with the WCG and 10-bit color - but with SDR instead of HDR.

Will this be possible with the Strato?

 

[JohnJ]

I just read this article on AVS that gave some good information and listed displays that are compatible to the new HDR specs.

http://www.avsforum.com/hdr-capable-displays/?utm_content=title2

John

 

[HiFiGuy1]

What projector are you using? Is it one of the small handful specified as compliant/compatible with HDR10?

It is widely held that the most important aspect of UltraHD Premium is the HDR. Next would be the WCG and the Deep Color, and finally, the 4K resolution. The thing about the HDR part, is that it takes tremendous light output and a really good black level to get enough stops for HDR to work properly, in addition to the obvious necessity of having the projector be made to reproduce HDR10/Open HDR, at least, if not Dolby Vision.

It has been argued that there is, in fact, a standard for grading HDR10. I am not as well-versed in this yet, at least as well as I should be, but it seems there was a panel discussion that debunked this at CES last month. Apparently, it's hard for some of the displays to hit the target, which is another problem entirely.

I think we are still in the infancy stage of calibrating for all these things, frankly, except for maybe the 4K resolution itself, since that's pretty straightforward. Keep your ear to the ground, though, and I think the smart guys in the room will get it figured out sooner rather than later.

 

[RAV]

Interesting and informative article.

I agree that HDR is widely held to be the best thing about UHD - the most visually compelling aspect of the four improvements I listed above. The problem is - UltraHD Premium (to the best of my knowledge) has no standard for projectors and projectors simply don’t have the light output capabilities of flat panels. As a result - even people with projectors that support HDR10 (such as the 2016 JVC models) have been really struggling to get a good picture with the new UHD Blu-rays. The picture is very dim and the colors are off (even after a significant amount of tweaking). A lot of people have been defeating HDR by using an HDFury Integral in the signal path.

My understanding is UltraHD Premium defines two standards - essentially one for LCDs (1000 nits peak brightness) and one for OLEDs (540 nits peak brightness). Most projectors are just not going to get this type of brightness. Here is a brief discussion - see the UHD Alliance section:

http://www.projectorreviews.com/home-theater-and-projectors-the-technical-side/ces-2016-day-1/

Projectors can do a great job with Image Resolution, Bit Depth, and Wide Color Gamut. Not so much with High Dynamic Range (at least so far). I suppose it is possible that projector manufacturers will remap HDR in a way that provides a good picture. I have heard that JVC has a firmware upgrade on the way.

I am using an HDR10 compliant projector - the JVC DLA-RS600. And - I am hoping to be able to get a great picture from the Strato when UHD Blu-ray equivalents start appearing in the Kaleidescape Movie Store.

Hence this discussion!

 

[HiFiGuy1]

So, just for the sake of discussion, because I sell these (theoretically, anyway ) how about the Digital Projection Insight 4K Laser projector as an example of a projector that might have the skills to do HDR?

4096x2160 native resolution - CHECK

DCI P3 color space - CHECK? Not sure of that spec, but I think so. Looked at the spec sheet, but it didn't address color space by BT/REC. It's a laser 3-chip, so I am going with YES.

HDMI 1.4 - Well, that's a non-starter currently, but it could be engineered to have HDMI 2.0a or DisplayPort 1.3, and then.... CHECK (It already receives color at 12 bits and can internally map/process it at 16 bits, so it's a beast in that regard)

12,000 lumens on a 129 square foot screen (that's a 15'+ wide 16:9 screen) will get you 1000 nits, so at least the top end is there.... CHECK? The true test in this case would be whether or not, when set up to top out at 1000 nits, it could get dark enough to achieve the number of f-stops for HDR. That would have to be attempted to get that answer. Alternatively, it could be set up for the 540 nit max (239 sq. ft.) screen. How about a 23.9' wide and 10 foot tall CinemaScope image, with 540 nits of peak brightness!! Holy cow... Then, the dark end would be darker, which might be what it needs to make the Dynamic Range necessary.

Alternatively, the higher end could be set up for higher nits, maybe 4000, which would make a slight lack of ultimate black manageable in the HDR realm. That screen would be "only" 32.3 sq. ft., which is still just under an 8' wide 16:9 screen. Of course, it might have to be made from asbestos to handle the 4000 nits!

 

[JerryL]

You guys just put your finger on why I am waiting because for me changing my system for UHD or whatever this next gen stuff will be called will be projector led. For my normal viewing I find the 1080P screens I currently have to be really great. I'm waiting for specs to stabilize and prices to come down.

 

[cinelife]

So, just for the sake of discussion, because I sell these (theoretically, anyway ) how about the Digital Projection Insight 4K Laser projector as an example of a projector that might have the skills to do HDR?

4096x2160 native resolution - CHECK

DCI P3 color space - CHECK? Not sure of that spec, but I think so. Looked at the spec sheet, but it didn't address color space by BT/REC. It's a laser 3-chip, so I am going with YES.

HDMI 1.4 - Well, that's a non-starter currently, but it could be engineered to have HDMI 2.0a or DisplayPort 1.3, and then.... CHECK (It already receives color at 12 bits and can internally map/process it at 16 bits, so it's a beast in that regard)

12,000 lumens on a 129 square foot screen (that's a 15'+ wide 16:9 screen) will get you 1000 nits, so at least the top end is there.... CHECK? The true test in this case would be whether or not, when set up to top out at 1000 nits, it could get dark enough to achieve the number of f-stops for HDR. That would have to be attempted to get that answer. Alternatively, it could be set up for the 540 nit max (239 sq. ft.) screen. How about a 23.9' wide and 10 foot tall CinemaScope image, with 540 nits of peak brightness!! Holy cow... Then, the dark end would be darker, which might be what it needs to make the Dynamic Range necessary.

Alternatively, the higher end could be set up for higher nits, maybe 4000, which would make a slight lack of ultimate black manageable in the HDR realm. That screen would be "only" 32.3 sq. ft., which is still just under an 8' wide 16:9 screen. Of course, it might have to be made from asbestos to handle the 4000 nits!

I'm considering that DPI Laser, will be bringing one in soon to test in my theatre. I currently use the DPI Titan Ref 660 3D, and that image is incredible, so other than Laser longevity as a plus, and 4K, I need to actually SEE the performance improvements before I make a change.

As typical of the industry, create a new tech, demo it at shows, market it, and THEN, find a way to make all of the relevant components (Displays, processors, players, cables, etc) compatible!

Still, a fun time in AV with all of these upcoming improvements to video (and audio)!



Jim

 

[HiFiGuy1]

Jim,
In your case, you might try the Dual-LED, too. I did see the specs on that one for color space, and it's specified as being close to REC2020. It's spec'd at 3000 lumens, though, so it might not work for you in that regard. Also, it's $30k more expensive than the laser, so that doesn't help.

That's one of the two mains ones they had at CEDIA inside their booth in the largest darkened room, and I was under the impression that somehow they were sending UHD graded material to it that was in REC2020 or at least P3.

It was the best looking image I saw at the show, and it wasn't close. The screen was very large, and it was lit up as much as I can imagine anyone could ask for. It might have been a prototype of the laser with the mods like I mentioned so it could do UltraHD, but whichever of the two it was, it was awesome.

The problem with both of them as of today is they still use older spec HDMI and DisplayPort, which is relatively easy for them to update, but for now it's a limiting factor. If they haven't already made the running design change to HDMI 2.0a/HDCP 2.2, I am sure it's in the works.

Also, on a gigantic screen, which I am guessing you have, the 4K resolution is much more of a priority. It's nearly irrelevant on a 60" inch Living Room TV, but on a 10-15' wide Scope screen, 4K resolution creeps up the list and makes a strong case for itself. I would think that is especially true with the DC 4096x2160 DLP, since they seem to excel at single-pixel resolving power anyway.

 

[cinelife]

Opted for the new Sony VW5000ES for now, and should have that unit soon. Unlike the DPI laser, it does support HDR.



Jim

 

[HiFiGuy1]

Opted for the new Sony VW5000ES for now, and should have that unit soon. Unlike the DPI laser, it does support HDR.



Jim

Can't wait to hear your impressions after you get it calibrated and watch some UHD material on it. I am sure it will be awesome!

 

[cinelife]

I've seen it in a recent install, it looked incredible. To test HDR support I'll have to use an external Player, unfortunately we are still waiting for HDR support in the Store's 4K content. I have a Player on an NDA that is not Samsung, so I'll test with that after receiving the 5000. I tested it already with a flat screen, looked great. We'll see!




Jim

 

[naylorman32]

the 5000 is basically my life goal at some point haha

 

[cinelife]

As always, the technology will trickle down into in less expensive units that perform as well going forward, some of us are just too wrapped up in our early adopter addiction to wait a year or so. If I could manage to keep a PJ for more than two years, I might actually be able to justify some of these costs. As an example of waste, my DPI Titan Ref 660 retailed for $78K on release (I paid less), and now, less than two years later with only about 800 hours on the original lamps, I'm selling it for $17K!! It never ends.......





Jim

 

[HiFiGuy1]

Wish I had known you were selling that for that price. I might have to buy a new house to put that in! I am thinking 3-4 car garage on the ground floor, with a dedicated theater and and efficiency apartment above. Of course, at that point, I would likely be single, because my wife would probably divorce me, so there'd be plenty of room!

 

[Nabs17]

You guys just put your finger on why I am waiting because for me changing my system for UHD or whatever this next gen stuff will be called will be projector led. For my normal viewing I find the 1080P screens I currently have to be really great. I'm waiting for specs to stabilize and prices to come down.

Same here. It's too early to jump on this bandwagon.

 

[JerryL]

Congratulations Jim! Your going for the Sony is the seal of approval as far as I'm concerned. I'm just not yet ready to make a change of projector. But my goodness, that Sony does make a tempting case for itself.

 

[cinelife]

We'll see Jerry, it sure looked incredible when I finally saw a unit set up correctly in a dedicated room (as opposed to a Show demo).

HiFiGuy1, have not sold the Titan yet, that is a standing offer I have. I'm waiting for the 5000 delivery, so there's still time to work on that divorce!!




Jim