Store Pricing Feedback & Debate

[TrackZ]

Starting a thread for open discussion about store pricing and practices.

 

[TrackZ]

This isn't a pre-recorded media format that is released in stores with extras, packaging and all other sorts of things. This is a digital file and is comparable to other services offering digital files.

Let's look at Paramount recently. Upgrade pricing for stuff like Indiana Jones and The Godfather was like $5-7. Now I am looking at upgrade pricing for some other recent catalog titles:

Enemy at the Gates: Upgrade price is $17.99. The only thing that changes with this is the video quality, period. No other packaging, special feature or audio like you may have with a new disc release. If I look at Enemy at the Gates on iTunes (digital delivery service) the upgrade price is FREE if you already own the title. But even outside of that, if I wanted to outright buy this movie on iTunes from scratch for the 4K HDR version, it is $4.99.

Another example is Stardust. Another 17.99. Free upgrade in iTunes, but even to buy it outright costs less than the UPGRADE in K.

Nearly at the same time we see Varsity Blues with an upgrade price around $7 from the same studio. Again, catalog title, same studio but nearly a $10 difference in upgrade cost compared to these other catalog titles?? To buy the movie in 4K HDR outright on iTunes is $4.99. Sound familiar? So why a nearly $10 discrepancy on K for a movie that is clearly the same cost to Digital distribution outlets from the exact same studio??

Mousehunt, a catalog kids movie costs $34.99 new on K for a 4K version. That is $20 more than the equivalent title on iTunes and $10 more than new day and date titles we've been seeing from Paramount like Top Gun Maverick. Again, HOW DOES THIS MAKE ANY SENSE TO ANYONE let alone sit well with them. Elizabeth town is exactly the same thing and the list goes ON AND ON AN ON.

If prices for studios were more consistent it probably wouldn't be as big of a deal, but that is far from the case and Paramount is probably becoming the worst in this regard. If no one says anything about this, how will it get resolved? When Indiana Jones came out people were trying to figure out why upgrade costs were so high on it. Same thing with Lord of the Rings (that was a clusterF if I've ever seen one). A day or two later K corrected the upgrade price to where we typically saw it from them. This has happened SEVERAL times in the last year, so how do we know that we are not seeing the same thing here? Obviously if K was on the ball with pricing stuff we wouldn't have seen the same issue several times like we did already this year, so how do I or anyone else know that this isn't just more oversight?? I'm placing this ball fully in K's court because at the end of the day it just looks like gouging to me. I love my K system for performance (I own a Strato, Alto and two Terras) but that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore what looks like nearly blatant pricing issues for content. Especially when as a consultant I have clients all the time asking if they should be investing in K and are already balking at the hardware costs. I'd hope that I can tell them that once they get past the high hardware cost of entry there was consistent and competitive pricing for software, but I keep seeing reasons for that to not be the case.

The quote above is from @KDeering about store pricing.

Pricing has kept me from buying certain titles in the store, for sure, including new releases up at $39.99 per. I can afford to, but I don't want to pay that. I got lucky with timing in my Kaleidescape account as I got in when UV was still around and did quite a bit of D2D, otherwise I wouldn't have close to the library size I do today and it would temper my investment in the platform, for sure.

Per some of the recent videos on my YouTube channel, I think more and more I could get by with just an Apple TV in my setups for all of my content and entertainment needs and be happy. In many ways, I would be happier with less paradox of choice, less frustration double buying content, and quite a lot of freed up money to allocate to other things or other gear in terms of reducing what I own today and saving future expensive purchases too. That decision, for me, isn't just about K though, but also in parallel with regards to gaming platforms.

Some reasonable consistency would be awesome to see in the K store. I agree that a $5 premium is fine. Apple makes iTunes just too nice with good quality and amazing convenience and features. I'm also really keen to see if we get some Apple TV news on 9/7 as well as what K might have to say at CEDIA.

 

[Oldred]

The following was originally posted on the 4k release thread.

Re the posts above. Right or wrong I have got a reinforced opinion from other posts on here that the files Kaleidescape are ‘not the same’ in that they have access to the ‘studio master files’ and convert without the compression that streamed files use. The ‘quality’ of video ‘can’ achieve, to the eye, similar results with some movies/formats/devices/speeds but the audio in my own experience is markedly different. For me personally the audio has increasingly become ‘the difference’ in the home cinema experience and it is a key factor in our choices.

The other key point, again if correct, but again reinforced on here, has been that the level of pricing is substantially set by the studios, not Kaleidescape. So I am sure they take profit per individual movie title but they aren’t the prime driver for prices of $39.99. That comes from a studio. Whether that has been influenced by other major buyers such as Apple etc etc, I don't know but pricing from some studios seems excessive and as a punter it’s difficult to understand their logic.

Re the original point of upgrades pricing. The same applies, set by studios, the variance is unclear and sometimes is outstanding and sometimes very disappointing. As a customer, we span the studios, hence some of that variance but as cited Paramount seem to vary prices significantly. These questions probably need to go to the studios unless I have the wrong end of the stick. How we influence them is less than clear.

 

[erixon1138]

Thank you for making this a new thread. Sorry for disturbing the US BR & 4K Releases for July & August 2022 thread.

Thanks @KDeering, @SeriousSloth and @Oldred for your participation and input.

Agree with @Oldred that the sound is as important then the picture in a cinematic experience. I say it's a 50/50 experience.

So if I understand correctly, iTunes does not have the sound of a disc and Kaleidescape so not a useful service for a cinema room. Their service may be good for a living room only TV solution or maybe with a soundbar. You probably can't tell the difference in sound on a disc or streaming. But when it comes to a cinema room were you have a receiver with a 7.1.4 speaker setup or even a 5.1 speaker setup (in the price range above $2500) you probably experience the difference.

Agree with @KDeering that clients tend to really like the streaming instead of discs but I usually tell them that there is a difference to watch a movie and experience a movie. You can watch a movie on streaming service but you experience it on disc (or K for that matter). With streaming you can watch it on anything (tablet, TV or phone) and it's great. But it's not comparable with experience on disc.

So if the movies would be free on iTunes and the updates were free you still can't use it in a cinema experience and compare it to disc or K. So the difference in price is irrelevant. If I understand the movies are cheaper on iTunes so you pay for a Porsche instead of a Bugatti but you actually end up with a bicycle in experience.

Also agree that the discounts are great and I filled up my 24TB with 4K movies in 3 months and I now have like 50 movies that I don't have the space for. If I haven't bought a Kaleidescape system I would not have been able to upgrade so many movies to 4K. Since you don't get discount on a 4K disc when you already have it on Blu-Ray.

 

[alexbeans]

Thank you for making this a new thread. Sorry for disturbing the US BR & 4K Releases for July & August 2022 thread.

Thanks @KDeering, @SeriousSloth and @Oldred for your participation and input.

Agree with @Oldred that the sound is as important then the picture in a cinematic experience. I say it's a 50/50 experience.

So if I understand correctly, iTunes does not have the sound of a disc and Kaleidescape so not a useful service for a cinema room. Their service may be good for a living room only TV solution or maybe with a soundbar. You probably can't tell the difference in sound on a disc or streaming. But when it comes to a cinema room were you have a receiver with a 7.1.4 speaker setup or even a 5.1 speaker setup (in the price range above $2500) you probably experience the difference.

Agree with @KDeering that clients tend to really like the streaming instead of discs but I usually tell them that there is a difference to watch a movie and experience a movie. You can watch a movie on streaming service but you experience it on disc (or K for that matter). With streaming you can watch it on anything (tablet, TV or phone) and it's great. But it's not comparable with experience on disc.

So if the movies would be free on iTunes and the updates were free you still can't use it in a cinema experience and compare it to disc or K. So the difference in price is irrelevant. If I understand the movies are cheaper on iTunes so you pay for a Porsche instead of a Bugatti but you actually end up with a bicycle in experience.

Also agree that the discounts are great and I filled up my 24TB with 4K movies in 3 months and I now have like 50 movies that I don't have the space for. If I haven't bought a Kaleidescape system I would not have been able to upgrade so many movies to 4K. Since you don't get discount on a 4K disc when you already have it on Blu-Ray.

I think K should have enough data to find out how much money customers are willing to pay for a digital movie. How many movies are deserving enough to be willing to pay $20 more to get the absolute best in audio and video? Elizabethtown, a mediocre movie that was released in 2005 that can be streamed for free with a paid subscription of Paramount+ or Epix that many of us may already be subscribers to. Or if you want to own it, at Amazon or VUDU for $14.99 for a 4k version. We know that we cannot compare Amazon/ VUDU/ iTunes with K and should be priced higher. But $20 higher?

 

[Oldred]

I think K should have enough data to find out how much money customers are willing to pay for a digital movie. How many movies are deserving enough to be willing to pay $20 more to get the absolute best in audio and video? Elizabethtown, a mediocre movie that was released in 2005 that can be streamed for free with a paid subscription of Paramount+ or Epix that many of us may already be subscribers to. Or if you want to own it, at Amazon or VUDU for $14.99 for a 4k version. We know that we cannot compare Amazon/ VUDU/ iTunes with K and should be priced higher. But $20 higher?

I can't disagree but doesn't that question sit at the Studio's feet. I don't think we can reasonably expect Kaleidescape to subsidise the Studios pricing or even to pass them on at cost. The hardware may be expensive but as customers we don't buy these things every quarter do we, or at least I hope we don't.

Surely the 'elephant' here is that the studio already has the master and is simply passing it to Kaleidescape (or at least their cost of readying it should be consistent across all studios and movies). But we find Batman at $39.99 from Warners which (as good as it was) seems over priced etc etc while say Lionsgate sits mostly circa $19.99 which I think is a reasonable premium and 'bigger movies' $24.99?. The Disney releases seem to be at $24.99 which seems OKish and then quite often subject to offers after they have been around for a while. I think if they were all circa $19.99 and then dropping dependent on age/etc. eventually to $9.99 there would be no moans. But the studio sets those pricing levels.

So you have to wonder why? I don't see it's for 'profit' because with the greatest will in the world even if we for instance all bought the latest batman movie, would it even register in the roundings in terms of profit contribution? They can't be pricing for profit at K. So is it reluctant sales, that they feel they have to do but don't really want to, so they are pricing this channel to wither and die? Seems all a bit unnecessary to me and so I doubt it. Are they looking to set a high Premium value at K for extra quality with a view to offering improved quality at a premium themselves? Maybe? I really don't know. But I can't see how it helps K to have this wild variation in pricing and so can't believe that they haven't tried to flatten and lower it already. If I am honest pressure is needed on the studios and I am not sure this niche group is big enough to influence the accountants is it? I hope it is and that it sets the future benchmark for quality but sadly the mass market always lets me down when it comes to valuing quality - appraently we are the weird andunusual ones .

The problem still ahead potentially is that the studios seem to me at least to be heading for a 'we can sell direct' model. Trying at the moment to keep their cake and eat it. By charging monthly fees for access and then limiting or overpricing access elsewhere becomes an objective. They have been threatened by Netflix and Amazon's entry, Disney moved first and the rest are piling in. I am far from an expert on this but the whole thing feels as if the consumer ends up being faced with more cost. Who knew.....

 

[SJHT]

Warner is just plain ridiculous. $40 is just so overpriced compared to many others with Paramount second. I think the Disney $25 movie cost is about right these days. SJ

 

[KDeering]

Thank you for making this a new thread. Sorry for disturbing the US BR & 4K Releases for July & August 2022 thread.

Thanks @KDeering, @SeriousSloth and @Oldred for your participation and input.

Agree with @Oldred that the sound is as important then the picture in a cinematic experience. I say it's a 50/50 experience.

So if I understand correctly, iTunes does not have the sound of a disc and Kaleidescape so not a useful service for a cinema room. Their service may be good for a living room only TV solution or maybe with a soundbar. You probably can't tell the difference in sound on a disc or streaming. But when it comes to a cinema room were you have a receiver with a 7.1.4 speaker setup or even a 5.1 speaker setup (in the price range above $2500) you probably experience the difference.

Agree with @KDeering that clients tend to really like the streaming instead of discs but I usually tell them that there is a difference to watch a movie and experience a movie. You can watch a movie on streaming service but you experience it on disc (or K for that matter). With streaming you can watch it on anything (tablet, TV or phone) and it's great. But it's not comparable with experience on disc.

So if the movies would be free on iTunes and the updates were free you still can't use it in a cinema experience and compare it to disc or K. So the difference in price is irrelevant. If I understand the movies are cheaper on iTunes so you pay for a Porsche instead of a Bugatti but you actually end up with a bicycle in experience.

Also agree that the discounts are great and I filled up my 24TB with 4K movies in 3 months and I now have like 50 movies that I don't have the space for. If I haven't bought a Kaleidescape system I would not have been able to upgrade so many movies to 4K. Since you don't get discount on a 4K disc when you already have it on Blu-Ray.

You make it sound like the AppleTV versions are in stereo or mono and are not compatible with home theater systems. They are the EXACT same multi-channel mixes you get with Kaleidescape. Atmos, 7.1, etc. The only difference is that AppleTV uses Dolby Digital Plus, which is generally 640kbps (which is better than we ever had even on DVD) while K uses Dolby TrueHD, which is lossless compression. Yes, K is better, but again we are talking about compression, not playback ability.

 

[KDeering]

Warner is just plain ridiculous. $40 is just so overpriced compared to many others with Paramount second. I think the Disney $25 movie cost is about right these days. SJ

Honestly, I don't really care about the $40 Warner price because it is for a new release and usually it is a bit early. But at least Warner is consistent in their pricing across the board. I would prefer to see them priced more like Disney though ($24.99 new releases, $19.99 catalog). With Paramount the pricing makes zero sense from title to title. New releases for 24.99, catalog for $34.99, upgrades from $5 to $18?? Their pricing is a mess and wildly inconsistent enough that you think there is a mistake.

 

[Oldred]

Honestly, I don't really care about the $40 Warner price because it is for a new release and usually it is a bit early. But at least Warner is consistent in their pricing across the board. I would prefer to see them priced more like Disney though ($24.99 new releases, $19.99 catalog). With Paramount the pricing makes zero sense from title to title. New releases for 24.99, catalog for $34.99, upgrades from $5 to $18?? Their pricing is a mess and wildly inconsistent enough that you think there is a mistake.

Not sure I totally understand why you think Warner are OK because they have hardly slashed the price since it went on general digital release but maybe more relevant is, shouldn't your angst be with Paramount? The next question would be, is there any worthwhile pressure to be made on them to reconsider their approach and what might that be. The inconsistency of pricing is a bit bonkers but the accountant's answer is typically bring the low prices up to the match the higher ones By that I don't mean we shouldn't try - more that we should do it with our eyes open.

My simple answer so far has been to just buy the ones I can persuade myself I am comfortable with the pricing and rent or go elsewhere for the rest. So I did buy Batman despite not being happy about it because 4 of us wanted to watch it and persuaded myself that we would watch it numerous times too. But potential misses that we risk watching I will watch on amazon or apple.

An interesting test might be that if they offered D2D pricing on K for all of my Amazon or Apple purchases, would I upgrade or not. It would depend on the movie and the upgrade price but I would say yes. I was able to pick up the first 2 Hunger games for less than $5 this morning due to D2D and at that price across the board I would just click on the button albeit we have a lot on apple. If they were $20 for D2D I would get choosy.

 

[DmitryB]

I'm sure Kaleidescape would love to have more titles at cheaper price so we can fill our hardware, and they can sell more Terras. So I have no doubt the pricing is been determined by the studios. But I have wondered how K deals with the studios. Do they have bare-knuckle negotiations with studios, or do they just accept whatever the studios give them? This pertains not just to price of titles, but what titles are available. There are things available from other streamers that are not on Kaleidescape. How come? For example, Vudu has the extended edition of the Swedish "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo" trilogy starring Noomi Rapace. But the K-store only has the "theatrical," heavily abridged versions. How come? Are there curators at Kaleidescape who hunt down titles and studios to license from, or do they just take whatever is offered?

 

[alexbeans]

You make it sound like the AppleTV versions are in stereo or mono and are not compatible with home theater systems. They are the EXACT same multi-channel mixes you get with Kaleidescape. Atmos, 7.1, etc. The only difference is that AppleTV uses Dolby Digital Plus, which is generally 640kbps (which is better than we ever had even on DVD) while K uses Dolby TrueHD, which is lossless compression. Yes, K is better, but again we are talking about compression, not playback ability.

Agree. AppleTV versions are just fine in the cinema room. And about the complaints on the upgrade price? Don’t buy the HD versions then and wait until the 4K version is released. I only buy HD versions of TV shows because I’ve accepted that they will rarely get released in 4K even though they are in 4K in other outlets.
If K offers a store-wide upgrade plan of $5 or below per movie to convert from HD to 4K, then I may be inclined to buy the HD versions until the 4K is available

 

[alexbeans]

I'm sure Kaleidescape would love to have more titles at cheaper price so we can fill our hardware, and they can sell more Terras. So I have no doubt the pricing is been determined by the studios. But I have wondered how K deals with the studios. Do they have bare-knuckle negotiations with studios, or do they just accept whatever the studios give them? This pertains not just to price of titles, but what titles are available. There are things available from other streamers that are not on Kaleidescape. How come? For example, Vudu has the extended edition of the Swedish "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo" trilogy starring Noomi Rapace. But the K-store only has the "theatrical," heavily abridged versions. How come? Are there curators at Kaleidescape who hunt down titles and studios to license from, or do they just take whatever is offered?

I would rather pay more for the content than buy more Terra’s. Storing them in the iCloud is good enough and I don’t need another hardware taking up space and running 24/7. K need to come up with a better revenue stream because hardware is not the answer given that for $4k it only get you room to store 100 4K movies.
I also think that K doesn’t have enough negotiation powers because there are so few K owners. Studios just need to know that K owners are the ones that are willing to buy movies and TV shows whereas others are happy with streaming for free

 

[TrackZ]

Warner is just plain ridiculous. $40 is just so overpriced compared to many others with Paramount second. I think the Disney $25 movie cost is about right these days. SJ

$24.99 is magic to me. I'll buy new movies all day long on release on K for $24.99. I feel like I'm paying a fair price and I'm getting value in terms of watching it well before disc at excellent quality at that price point.

 

[silfa718]

$24.99 is magic to me. I'll buy new movies all day long on release on K for $24.99. I feel like I'm paying a fair price and I'm getting value in terms of watching it well before disc at excellent quality at that price point.

That sounds fair, but the upgrade pricing can't be more than the cost of a new movie.

 

[blackgold9]

You make it sound like the AppleTV versions are in stereo or mono and are not compatible with home theater systems. They are the EXACT same multi-channel mixes you get with Kaleidescape. Atmos, 7.1, etc. The only difference is that AppleTV uses Dolby Digital Plus, which is generally 640kbps (which is better than we ever had even on DVD) while K uses Dolby TrueHD, which is lossless compression. Yes, K is better, but again we are talking about compression, not playback ability.

I disagree. I have definitely noted a difference between audio when streamed and when played lossless from disk/K. Lossy compression throws away information, and it comes with a decrease in clarity and bass response. It's the whole reason I got into physical media. I'm not a collector, but I want the best experience possible after all the work I've put into building my room. I know that may not matter to everyone, but the difference is there.

 

[Oldred]

I disagree. I have definitely noted a difference between audio when streamed and when played lossless from disk/K. Lossy compression throws away information, and it comes with a decrease in clarity and bass response. It's the whole reason I got into physical media. I'm not a collector, but I want the best experience possible after all the work I've put into building my room. I know that may not matter to everyone, but the difference is there.

I would have to agree. The audio ‘works’ on Apple TV but it’s a shadow of the audio impact on K or the disk itself typically. I would say to the point of it sounding like a different version sometimes. It’s been the biggest uplift since installing the Kaleidescape.

 

[KDeering]

I disagree. I have definitely noted a difference between audio when streamed and when played lossless from disk/K. Lossy compression throws away information, and it comes with a decrease in clarity and bass response. It's the whole reason I got into physical media. I'm not a collector, but I want the best experience possible after all the work I've put into building my room. I know that may not matter to everyone, but the difference is there.

Again, I’ll take disc or k all day for both video and audio. I’m just saying that some make it sound like streaming is still stuck in mono. I bet in some truly blind A/B comparisons that are level matched the difference would be way smaller than most think or imply. But that is another topic. I just want to see better AND more consistent pricing. I agree completely with Trackz that 24.99 seems like the sweet spot for peak price unless it is some “still in theaters” kind of thing. Clearly a few studios already feel this way.

 

[erixon1138]

Again, I’ll take disc or k all day for both video and audio. I’m just saying that some make it sound like streaming is still stuck in mono. I bet in some truly blind A/B comparisons that are level matched the difference would be way smaller than most think or imply. But that is another topic. I just want to see better AND more consistent pricing. I agree completely with Trackz that 24.99 seems like the sweet spot for peak price unless it is some “still in theaters” kind of thing. Clearly a few studios already feel this way.

I did not mean it still stuck in mono. But it does not meet up to todays standard for home cinema sound. If it's slightly better than DVD the sound is behind standard with 15 years when Blu-Ray was launched with the new sound formats.

On pricing I agree that $24.99 is really fair price and on par with a 4K disc release.

Upgrading to 4K $10 is a fair price I would say. Then I would not hesitate on a singe title.

 

[thrillcat]

You make it sound like the AppleTV versions are in stereo or mono and are not compatible with home theater systems. They are the EXACT same multi-channel mixes you get with Kaleidescape. Atmos, 7.1, etc. The only difference is that AppleTV uses Dolby Digital Plus, which is generally 640kbps (which is better than we ever had even on DVD) while K uses Dolby TrueHD, which is lossless compression. Yes, K is better, but again we are talking about compression, not playback ability.

Right, using that sort of language is part of what gives dealers/installers a bad name. You tell them "oh, that device isn't good enough for your cinema room" and then a year later they go to Target and buy one, plug it in and boom - you're the crook who made them buy a $10K+ system vs the $150 box, and you're never trusted again.

Those of us who value the highest quality are in a drastic minority of people who can see/hear a difference. Most of the folks out there will either not notice or barely notice the difference between K and ATV.

Using the "it's not good enough" line is a bad sales tactic. "It's not the best available", or "with the investment you're making in the rest of your system, the ATV won't utilize it to its fullest extent" is a much more effective line. It's honest, and 100% true, and it can be backed up.