Star Wars-A New Hope / UHD or HDR

[Nelson10]

Hello all,

I have been comparing the UHD & HDR version of a A New Hope. I am using a calibrated JVC NX9 to compare. I prefer the UHD version over the HDR. To me, the UHD version image looks more balanced. Blacks look inky and whites look bright without looking over blown. This makes the overall image brighter while keeping the color still looking great.

Has anyone ever compared this? Do you think there is a major loss in video quality when viewing it in UHD over the HDR?

 

[steelman1991]

I haven't but am keen to evaluate. How do you watch both versions? I have the HDR version, do I have to delete and re-download the UHD version?

 

[Kostas]

I haven't but am keen to evaluate. How do you watch both versions? I have the HDR version, do I have to delete and re-download the UHD version?

No need to delete, both versions can be downloaded. You can then delete the one you don't want to keep.

 

[steelman1991]

No need to delete, both versions can be downloaded. You can then delete the one you don't want to keep.

Thanks Kostas - couldn't get to the point of downloading anything but the HDR version, until I noticed the "change" button which allowed me to choose the version.

Derek

 

[Nelson10]

When I downloaded the HDR version it gave me the option to select the UHD also. I have both versions at the moment but I really like the UHD version.

 

[cinelife]

I think production differences in rendering the HDR versions are becoming more apparent.


Jim

 

[KDeering]

I've discussed this a few times with different people. One of the benefits of the Kscape system is the fact that a lot of movies are available in UHD without HDR encoding. This is especially nice for projection systems because HDR implementation and tone mapping can be VERY hit or miss. The UHD version is still native 4K and 10 bit, it just lacks the wider color gamut (they are 709) of the HDR version. But calibrating for this format is MUCH easier and more precise and you are not relying on a tone map that essentially boils down to a best guess approach on how to make an HDR version look like it should on a low nit display. I'd highly recommend this for anyone using a projection system that doesn't have at least adaptive frame by frame tone mapping (right now this is limited to the latest JVC models) or something like a Lumagen Radiance Pro or MadVR Envy video processor. And even in those setups you may find you like the UHD presentation more based on the experience of the person that setup the video playback chain and overall consistency in presentation.

 

[Nelson10]

I've discussed this a few times with different people. One of the benefits of the Kscape system is the fact that a lot of movies are available in UHD without HDR encoding. This is especially nice for projection systems because HDR implementation and tone mapping can be VERY hit or miss. The UHD version is still native 4K and 10 bit, it just lacks the wider color gamut (they are 709) of the HDR version. But calibrating for this format is MUCH easier and more precise and you are not relying on a tone map that essentially boils down to a best guess approach on how to make an HDR version look like it should on a low nit display. I'd highly recommend this for anyone using a projection system that doesn't have at least adaptive frame by frame tone mapping (right now this is limited to the latest JVC models) or something like a Lumagen Radiance Pro or MadVR Envy video processor. And even in those setups you may find you like the UHD presentation more based on the experience of the person that setup the video playback chain and overall consistency in presentation.

Hi Kris,
Have you compared the Star Wars A New Hope in HDR with your calibrated Lumagen NX9 combo against the UHD only version? If so what did you prefer?

 

[KDeering]

Hi Kris,
Have you compared the Star Wars A New Hope in HDR with your calibrated Lumagen NX9 combo against the UHD only version? If so what did you prefer?

I have not with that title specifically, but I've looked at a few others. I use a Lumagen, which IMHO is the best tone mapping solution on the market, so I have little to complain about when it comes to tone mapping issues. So the differences have been pretty small overall (as I would expect) but I like the increase in gamut.

 

[Nelson10]

I have not with that title specifically, but I've looked at a few others. I use a Lumagen, which IMHO is the best tone mapping solution on the market, so I have little to complain about when it comes to tone mapping issues. So the differences have been pretty small overall (as I would expect) but I like the increase in gamut.

Thanks for the response. I agree the increase in the gamut for most titles is preferred. But to me the HDR Star Wars doesn’t seem to really take advantage of the higher gamut and its also causing the image to look darker than the UHD version. Im not using a Lumagen for my JVC NX9. I am using the new frame adapt tone mapping in the NX9 that seems to be fine for most titles. I don’t think the Lumagen can help with this title because when I viewed it on my OLED I got the same impression.

 

[o0OBillO0o]

Thanks for the response. I agree the increase in the gamut for most titles is preferred. But to me the HDR Star Wars doesn’t seem to really take advantage of the higher gamut and its also causing the image to look darker than the UHD version. Im not using a Lumagen for my JVC NX9. I am using the new frame adapt tone mapping in the NX9 that seems to be fine for most titles. I don’t think the Lumagen can help with this title because when I viewed it on my OLED I got the same impression.

Nelson..
I agree. The UHD versions are subjectively "better" when using a display that cannot achieve the light output required for HDR. The local cinema sets their screen levels to 14fL +/- 3fL. The level they set the theater at is how I rationalize-- that even if I went to see it in the theater (54'+ wide screen)--it would be a close approximation in the home theater. To that end, one could make disparaging statement about HDR in general with respect to projectors, but I want progress. I think tone mapping / adaptive frame tone mapping are excellent tools to fit more into the experience. Of course it's one more multi thousand dollar box and qualified calibrator to do this enjoy!

 

[Nelson10]

I absolutely love HDR especially when the studios make the effort of properly grading the film. I don't believe its an issue with the projector or the calibration. The new tone mapping on the JVC is fine. I have my JVC NX9 paired with a 100"Stewart 1.3 gain screen which is outputting over 107 Nits in low lamp with the iris set to-2. The majority of the HDR looks fantastic. HDR in general can be difficult for projectors especially if you have very large screens that are just not capable of the output that is needed. I particularly like to have a bit over 100 nits. I am sure that a multi thousand dollar box can improve the image overall. However when it comes to Star Wars I believe its an issue with the implementation of HDR. NOT the calibration or the hardware. Thankfully the Kaleidescape gives me the option to view both HDR & UHD.

 

[o0OBillO0o]

Nelson...

Good clarification. You're pointing out that it's Star Wars not the projection system.

HDR's implementation and tone mapping ranges from hit to miss, this comment has been said above. I think that's why there are projector image presets and external tone mapping boxes to adjust the image to taste.

Two routes here: Pay up for a high performance projection system and compromise with limited resources. The text after this is all about limited resources..

I still think using a projector is part of the problem. Here's why: The "residential projection system" has no true standard for HDR-- they are working on it for cinema, though! (maybe "they" are farther along, that's from 2018!)

1. You have invested in a quality 100+ nit set up, further is shows you enough detail to discern that Star Wars is "sub standard" HDR. Still, this is using the "level" created by you/your calibrator, its not standardized-yet.
2. I acknowledge that this is a pay to play interest. Until then a pragmatic solution for projection systems is UHD downloads.
3. I suggest that you could download the UHD version of Star Wars until there is an update that improves it's HDR "quality."

Now, I am going to get both and A/B tonight

Bill

EG 432-1:2010 - EG 432-1:2010 - SMPTE Engineering Guideline - Digital Source Processing — Color Processing for D-Cinema - SMPTE Standard (ieee.org)

DCI-Image-Evaluation-Summary_20180511.pdf (dcimovies.com)

 

[Nelson10]

Noted. What type of display will you be doing your A/B?
I am pleased with the internal frame adapt tone mapping that the JVC NX9 is doing with HDR.
I agree an external box can improve HDR but again it will be to taste as there is no standard.