Question on 4k SDR.

[FenceMan]

Are the 4k SDR downloads in BT 2020 or Rec 709 colorspace?

 

[J.Green]

Are the 4k SDR downloads in BT 2020 or Rec 709 colorspace?

Rec. 709

 

[FenceMan]

Rec. 709

They really seem like a good option for projectors, is there any reason they aren't more popular?

Instead of using Lumagen or Envy just use the 4k SDR downloads?

 

[Johnraiders]

I use a Lumagen with a PJ and use the SDR version, otherwise I can do HDR but play back in SDR container(i know this isnt the correct technical term)

 

[ericourt]

Sorry in advance for what is probably a basic question. But why would you choose the SDR over HDR if HDR is brighter? Just want to understand so I'm downloading the right versions.

 

[FenceMan]

Sorry in advance for what is probably a basic question. But why would you choose the SDR over HDR if HDR is brighter? Just want to understand so I'm downloading the right versions.

HDR isn't necessarily brighter.

You might choose the SDR version for a projector that cannot do HDR very well.

 

[DieZwei]

The SDR versions are tonemapped and mastered towards 100nits.
If your projector is capable of more than 100nits (not many are, depends on the size of the screen of course), then you´re leaving potential on the table.
Plus, as mentioned above, you stick to the smaller rec.709 colorspace - again, leaving potential unused.
However, for standard projector setups, I agree, using the 4K SDR can be a good choice.

 

[FenceMan]

The SDR versions are tonemapped and mastered towards 100nits.
If your projector is capable of more than 100nits (not many are, depends on the size of the screen of course), then you´re leaving potential on the table.
Plus, as mentioned above, you stick to the smaller rec.709 colorspace - again, leaving potential unused.
However, for standard projector setups, I agree, using the 4K SDR can be a good choice.

Ah good explanation thanks.

 

[thrillcat]

They really seem like a good option for projectors, is there any reason they aren't more popular?

Instead of using Lumagen or Envy just use the 4k SDR downloads?

They are a very good option for those without a video processor, but they're cursed by the general public's perception that SDR is simply never as good as HDR. Prior to adding a Lumagen to my system, I almost always opted for the SDR version when available for my pre-DTM JVC projector.

 

[KDeering]

The SDR versions are tonemapped and mastered towards 100nits.
If your projector is capable of more than 100nits (not many are, depends on the size of the screen of course), then you´re leaving potential on the table.
Plus, as mentioned above, you stick to the smaller rec.709 colorspace - again, leaving potential unused.
However, for standard projector setups, I agree, using the 4K SDR can be a good choice.

I'm not sure why you would say they are specifically tone mapped. They are 10 bit and Rec709, but I agree with others (and mentioned in my review of the Strato from a few years ago) that the 4K SDR versions on Kscape are an overlooked advantage that the Kscape system offers, especially with projectors since the vast majority of them have poor tone mapping. I didn't get any indication from K that they were "tone mapped" versions, but 4K SDR grades provided by the studios. These would be mastered specifically to 100 nits as that is the standard for SDR mastering, but that is not a bad thing since they use relative gamma and not PQ, so it really doesn't matter how bright the projector is since gamma is again, relative. Plus, let's be frank; the vast majority of "bright" projectors on the market have extremely limited dynamic range. They are just trading brighter highlights for crappier blacks. They weren't good for SDR dynamic range, so HDR would be even worse. What they are good at is putting a lot of light on bigger canvases.

The limited colorspace is definitely a draw back, but I honestly don't think it would matter much subjectively if you don't have another image to compare to. People have been watching P3 graded material in theaters for years before 4K HDR came out and you rarely if ever heard people talking about "if only my colors looked as good as the cinema".

Once again, FOMO for the win with most of this stuff.

 

[DieZwei]

I'm not sure why you would say they are specifically tone mapped. They are 10 bit and Rec709, but I agree with others (and mentioned in my review of the Strato from a few years ago) that the 4K SDR versions on Kscape are an overlooked advantage that the Kscape system offers, especially with projectors since the vast majority of them have poor tone mapping. I didn't get any indication from K that they were "tone mapped" versions, but 4K SDR grades provided by the studios.

Ah, I wasn´t aware they get the 4K SDR material directly as is from the studios. I was under the impression that there´s no such thing and that K would need to derive their own from the 4K HDR master. But even better then as we get a definitive master.
For the "trade brighter highlights for crappier blacks" thing, we still prefer to leave that up to our clients decide as they are much better in deciding what´s better for them and what´s not than we are.

 

[KDeering]

Ah, I wasn´t aware they get the 4K SDR material directly as is from the studios. I was under the impression that there´s no such thing and that K would need to derive their own from the 4K HDR master. But even better then as we get a definitive master.
For the "trade brighter highlights for crappier blacks" thing, we still prefer to leave that up to our clients decide as they are much better in deciding what´s better for them and what´s not than we are.

K will derive new HD versions of movies if they get a UHD version from the studio, but they are not doing any tone mapping to the 4K HDR versions to derive the UHD versions.

 

[CINERAMAX IOPH]

It is not just a matter of projectors but also reference 1200-nit videowalls. Since the wall controller can perform color bandwidth expansion, taking the factory air-conditioned camera calibration results well beyond P3 into REC 2020, I have repeatedly downloaded HDR and SDR versions, and SDR wins by a large margin.

Kaleidescape should not hesitate to release previously unavailable SDR titles, as MadVR Envy Extreme tonemapping acts as an image softener on my MIP videowall. Videowalls are the future, making this a serious request from K. Too many titles are missing. SDR is not only beneficial for low-brightness displays but also excels at the opposite extreme in XDR applications.

I have 2,600 titles and will compile a list of essential SDR demo material requests. Please take action on this matter—some HD versions even looked significantly better than their HDR counterparts. Joe Kane warned about this years ago.

 

[FenceMan]

It is not just a matter of projectors but also reference 1200-nit videowalls. Since the wall controller can perform color bandwidth expansion, taking the factory air-conditioned camera calibration results well beyond P3 into REC 2020, I have repeatedly downloaded HDR and SDR versions, and SDR wins by a large margin.

Kaleidescape should not hesitate to release previously unavailable SDR titles, as MadVR Envy Extreme tonemapping acts as an image softener on my MIP videowall. Videowalls are the future, making this a serious request from K. Too many titles are missing. SDR is not only beneficial for low-brightness displays but also excels at the opposite extreme in XDR applications.

I have 2,600 titles and will compile a list of essential SDR demo material requests. Please take action on this matter—some HD versions even looked significantly better than their HDR counterparts. Joe Kane warned about this years ago.

Can we just request that they release 4k SDR Rec 2020 files instead? Seems like a no brainer then we eliminate the need for subjective tone mapping and colors and just have a pure as the creator intended file.

 

[DieZwei]

Since the wall controller can perform color bandwidth expansion, taking the factory air-conditioned camera calibration results well beyond P3 into REC 2020, I have repeatedly downloaded HDR and SDR versions, and SDR wins by a large margin.

Can you elaborate how "pumping up" SDR/rec.709 would lead to a better result than using P3/rec.2020 in the first place?

 

[CINERAMAX IOPH]

I’ve compared my modified Barco DP4K-15 with the Eclipse, and something in the Colorlight video processor is performing bandwidth expansion to the maximum triangle yielded by the videowall calibration. The result is the best HDR image I’ve ever seen—it blows people away. The Colorlight is handling SDR-to-HDR conversion exceptionally well. I tested this extensively by downloading 225 HDR titles, redownloading in SDR, back to HDR to try tonemapping settings, and then redownloading in SDR ( tone mapping sucks). The final image now is stunning way better than any projector around.

I cannot justify the cost of a CA-300 to measure videowall brightness, and a Minolta meter will not suffice. Therefore, all evaluations are by eye, but the image appears spot-on for D6500 calibration—better than on the Barco. Joe Kane has often emphasized that SDR with wide color gamut (WCG) is ideal, and this setup confirms that perspective. The intra-scene contrast is absolutely insane. While on/off contrast is currently 12k:1, the next-generation display will achieve 30k:1.

 

[CINERAMAX IOPH]

Here are some iPad shots from this morning. They have little relation to the actual nit levels and colorimetry—the pictures appear too saturated, dim, and reddish. In reality, this is some of the best HDR I’ve ever seen. Go figure—straight out of SDR.

The uniformity of MIP, where COB mass transfer wafers have the flip chips individually sliced, measured, binned, and finally tumbled, is unmatched by laser projection. The absence of sheen or any reflection on the screen further enhances the image. Most state-of-the-art displays use COB flip chips, which require significant correction through calibration. At best, they achieve 95% uniformity, whereas MIP delivers 100%.

MIP individual pixels have a failure rate of 1 in 10 million. A few may break during installation, and an odd one might fail in the first 60 days. For this 105", five spare modules were included, but repairs take about three weeks in Sacramento.

ISE showcased many new MIP offerings. We received our MIP screen in September. Some MIP screens are dark-coated for higher contrast, but raw MIP has the highest MTF, as you’re seeing the pure pixel. Without a dark coating, the pixel appears half as small (ask Lon or Chris Cooley). In contrast, black-coated screens introduce a dark tint that acts like a Sharpie around each pixel, creating a mosquito screen pattern distortion. This is particularly noticeable in subtitles and other bright areas, which I find somewhat unpleasant.

 

[DieZwei]

Here are some iPad shots from this morning. They have little relation to the actual nit levels and colorimetry—the pictures appear too saturated, dim, and reddish. In reality, this is some of the best HDR I’ve ever seen. Go figure—straight out of SDR.

Still not getting what you´re actually doing.
Fact is that the SDR content is mastered towards 100nits. So if you watch that with a 1000nits screen, it will just be too bright and you´ll lose dynamic range that you would get with HDR. I think we agree that this can be a good solution at the low-brightness end, but I don´t get what the benefit is with a high-brightness display.
The other thing is the gamut: you´re getting only rec.709 with the SDR content. If calibrated correctly, rec.709 colors will always look the same, regardless of the capabilities of the display. (besides the fact that brighter colors are usually perceived as being "better", which might explain the effect you are mentioning)
I know, some people take this rec.709 gamut and extend that to DCI-P3 or even rec.2020, which results in a more colorful image. But that´s not correct in terms of calibration. I´m sure a lot of people would perceive that as "superior", but IMHO it´s not. (although I appreciate that you can do whatever you want in your own space, that´s the beauty of a home cinema)
So in fact, you´re taking content that is mastered towards a much lower brightness level than your display can achieve with a much smaller gamut than your display can achieve and still claim that this is superior to taking the HDR-version of the content. That´s the piece I´m still confused about.

 

[ahard]

Over the last 3 weekends, I've 2 out 3 movies that were only available in 4K SDR. I'm not adverse to watching SDR as the last 2 SDR films I watched looked good in my eyes.

 

[CINERAMAX IOPH]

Still not getting what you´re actually doing.
Fact is that the SDR content is mastered towards 100nits. So if you watch that with a 1000nits screen, it will just be too bright and you´ll lose dynamic range that you would get with HDR. I think we agree that this can be a good solution at the low-brightness end, but I don´t get what the benefit is with a high-brightness display.
The other thing is the gamut: you´re getting only rec.709 with the SDR content. If calibrated correctly, rec.709 colors will always look the same, regardless of the capabilities of the display. (besides the fact that brighter colors are usually perceived as being "better", which might explain the effect you are mentioning)
I know, some people take this rec.709 gamut and extend that to DCI-P3 or even rec.2020, which results in a more colorful image. But that´s not correct in terms of calibration. I´m sure a lot of people would perceive that as "superior", but IMHO it´s not. (although I appreciate that you can do whatever you want in your own space, that´s the beauty of a home cinema)
So in fact, you´re taking content that is mastered towards a much lower brightness level than your display can achieve with a much smaller gamut than your display can achieve and still claim that this is superior to taking the HDR-version of the content. That´s the piece I´m still confused about.

I will share setting screen shots when I recover from some minor surgery.