Question About Upgrading

[cinelife]

I know there are many of us that have added Encore components to our Premiere systems, and some members that converted completely to Encore by upgrading their older components. There are also many owners that are still Premiere only.

My questions are for those owners still using Premiere, and in particular the "Premiere only" owners. If you don't mind sharing, what is stopping you from from upgrading to Encore? What would need to change in order for you to consider upgrading your components? (assuming you would)

(TBH, I'm trying to send a message here....)


Jim

 

[Jerry D]

Jim
There are so many reasons it is difficult to know where to start.
I guess the best place is to explain why I bought a system 10 years ago and the value it brings to me and my family. I was simply looking for an efficient movie jukebox that enable us to watch our movies in high quality without having to keep searching around the house for discs and then watching endless adverts before getting to the film.

The premiere system - especially the grandfathered version - is ideal for me. I appreciate of course that this original concept is no longer available to new purchasers, but it was and remains what I need.

The encore offering does not work for me for so many reasons:
- I would not be able to access my dvd and blu ray content, thereby failing my ultimate reason for having a system in the first place.
- I like that I am not reliant on one single source of content - ie the K store. This is especially because, while I support the store whenever possible, it is very expensive relative to Amazon, ITunes etc.
- The UK store remains extremely limited, so the encore system seems of limited use to anyone outside North America. I note that this might change soon, but I remain pretty sceptical, given we have been waiting years for any developments.
- The encore system has no RAID and my bandwidth is slow - so if a disc fails (and I have had a few over the years), content would either be lost or it would take literally months to restore everything from the Store.
- Given K’s near-death experience a couple of years ago, I generally feel uncomfortable being totally reliant of K’s infrastructure. My general sense (and it’s just a feeling rather than any great analysis), having a premiere system combined with lots of physical media gives me more security in the event that this is repeated.
- Going to solely encore would probably mean I would have to buy again lots of content that I already own. Given my thoughts on store pricing, I would rather avoid this.

So, these are a few thoughts. I rarely post, but feel I ought to this time because I am getting a sense (especially given the question put to us) that Kaleidescape may be considering dropping the premiere option and eventually removing support. For me, this would be an absolute catastrophe given the amount I have spent both on hardware and content at the K store.

In summary, I like the system I have got. I would never have bought into the Kaleidescape ecosystem had the only offering been encore. And I would be truly upset should K withdraw support for the premiere line.

Of course, I am happy to be proved wrong on any of these points.

J

 

[cinelife]

Thanks for the detailed post, much appreciated.


Jim

 

[SJHT]

Although Encore specific, seems those of us with Strato/Alto/Disc Server costar setups might also look to remove the non Strato components at some point in the future. My guess is that 80% of what I store on the Disc Server is available in the store. I keep the Disc Server full and if I need a new slot for a movie that is not available (e.g. the last Tomb Raider movie), I replace one of the physical discs with a new purchased download. I would love to remove the Altos and Disc Server, but would likely need to purchase another Terra and then spend lots of $s at the store to bring in the content for all the movies stored in the Disc Server. Then there is the issue of movies not yet available at the store like MGM and others.... The Alto/Strato/Disc Server costar works fine, but not as well as just using a Strato, Terra, etc.

 

[cinelife]

Thanks for sharing.

Jim

 

[JohnJ]

This question comes at a great time for me as I am almost full on my 3U server and just preparing to add a Terra server to my setup and was just contemplating the solution Kaleidescape came up with on merging the two system - I think it's genius (more below).

I have both systems and love it. I was one who was upset when the initial plan came out that required all content on Premiere servers to be copied over to the Encore servers since it made my initial investment almost worthless. The final solution was in my opinion was genius - very inventive way of using the Co-Star switch to pair the two systems (along with all the software updates that allowed this).

My reasons for not switching over the Encore only could be a long one so I will put the short version (TL;DR) first:

1) Titles not available in the store (especially concerts).
2) I want to optimize space (HD on 3U; 4K on Terra)
3) Scripts don't work between systems and don't work when playing a disc from a vault on the Encore system.
4) CDs - Encore doesn't do music
5) BR I own on disc from Disney that I don't want to upgrade since it will take up space on Encore that I am saving for 4K. I am updating titles as they are released in the Store in 4K.

Here is the long version:

1) Titles not available in the Store:

I have a lot of concert titles that are not available in the store. Interestingly, a lot of these are Eagle Rock Entertainment titles that aren't available yet. I also have many DVD's (mainly concerts) that are not available in the store and some that are no longer offered for sale and can only be purchased used. I also have a grandfathered system that allows me to import DVD's.

Optimize Space Between 3U and Terrea Server:

I currently have one 3U server with 56TB of storage that has 7% of free space. This will free up somewhat as I add more 4K content and delete out HD/BR content from the 3U. But basically I am at an optimum state with my 3U server filled and ready to start filling a Terra server.

Concert Scripts and Scripts from Disc Played from Vault Do Not Work:

I have lots of Scripts of concerts/musicals that I play. I probably have close to 20 different playlist of concerts that range the gamut of Jazz, Classical, Rock, Musicals, Opera, Ballet along with Music Scripts for wife, kids, grandkids. I even have multiple Scripts for the same content that is just randomly rearranged so that I don't remember the order (note to K - I would LOVE to have a randomizer for Scripts).

To have all the above Scripts play correctly I need all the content on one server. Since a lot of my concerts are not available in the Store, this means that I have to have all my concerts on the 3U server. I can’t move to an Encore system because I can't play Scenes from a disc in a Vault. Also, I am not adverse to re-purchasing content from the Store as I currently do this with all the newly added concerts (and other content also). This is just a capability issue.

Importing CDs:

I am constantly picking up CD's from garage sales, Goodwill, etc. and loading them into my server using the M700 Vault. Of course, Encore doesn't do music.

Disney:

I own a lot of Disney movies on BR. It would be a big expense to purchase again in the Store. However, if this were my only obstacle I might be willing to do it. But these movies would have to go on the Encore system taking up capacity that I want to save for 4K titles. As Disney titles are added to the Store in 4K, I am upgrading. Eventually, I will be converted over.

John

 

[cinelife]

Thanks John!!!

Jim

 

[o0OBillO0o]

JohnJ - good feedback!

 

[Kostas]

I fully echo John’s great feedback.

I use both Premiere and Encore products. I used to have three fully loaded 4TB 3U servers and four vaults. Today I have a grandfathered 30TB 1U+ server and 2 vaults(M700+ DV700) with three M300 players serving different zones linked to my Encore system(Terra servers and 3 Strato C players) using the Co-Star.

As John pointed out correctly, there are many things that the Encore system can’t do i.e. play music, reason why I have also kept a stand-alone M300 player only to listen to my CDs and play Zone B BDs.

I still have close to 420 BDs loaded in my vaults mainly Paramount and HBO TV series, Criterion BDs, MGM movies, History Channel documentaries, concerts from Eagle Rock that are not still available at the store, and many foreign movies that will never be available at the store. Older DVD movies and concerts are loaded as well, meaning that the 30TB 1U+ server is at 70% capacity without any Store downloads, they all go to my Terra servers.

Knowing that it is impossible to have the vaults connected to the Encore system directly and unless all of the above studios are added to the store, I believe that I will still have use of the Premiere line for many more years.
The experience that K offers for managing and viewing my BD and DVD collection is unique and I love it. I could eventually rip all the DVDs and BD foreign movies(if these are the last thing remaining in my server and vaults) to my NAS and use Plex instead but as long as I have a choice I prefer not.

With regards to the two other Encore systems that I have in other locations(Cinema One-2nd gen players) I seriously consider upgrading them to Strato S taking advantage of the latest upgrade promotion.

Kostas

 

[PrimeGeek]

I'm also considering upgrading to Strato S from Cinema One but would also have to buy an alto and DV700 for my several hundred Blurays. I'm orphaned since I can't expand to a second Cinema One and Strato doesn't work w it either

wish Encore
1. could play Bluray movies from DV700 like Alto.
2. could play music. In another thread, I wished for some type of collaboration w Roon and maybe Tidal music store.
3. offered improved fault tolerance. If not RAID, then something like https://www.drobo.com/drobo/beyondraid/

I'm very interested in the Strato promotion but worry about being orphaned again. I'll still likely upgrade by June tho.

 

[cinelife]

Thanks PG!

Jim

 

[SJHT]

Jim,
With Alto not even officially sold anymore as it is not even listed as a current offering that I can find (although I’m sure there are many still available and I might be wrong), what are NEW customers doing when they want to get into K with an existing library? The original strategy was Strato with a Disc Server. That was dropped because of the issues trying to get it to play Blu-rays. This was replaced with Strato/Alto/Disc Server all integrated with costar. SJ

 

[cinelife]

Sorry, somehow I missed this post! There is a 6TB Alto still available from K (it has a $3,295 msrp), for those wanting to use a Vault for all of their disc playback, and stay with the Encore line.

There is also a Premiere line 1U+ available, along with the usual M-class players, but unless someone has a Grandfathered Premiere server to use in an exchange/upgrade, it will be limited to only BR disc imports, and Store download content, with the following notes:
---A Vault will be needed to Store the physical BR disks, assuming the buyer doesn't want to place the physical BR disc in an M500 tray before playback.

---Need the Grandfathered status in order to import protected DVD's to the 1U+.

Jim

 

[JohnJ]

I think the issue is that there is no longer an Alto listed on the Kaleidescape web site under “servers and players”. It gives the impression that it is going away.

John

 

[cinelife]

Correct, and it likely is, I'm just letting OP know there are some in inventory and still on our dealer price lists.

Jim

 

[dnanian]

I've looked at adding a Strato setup (with Co-Star) to my system a number of times.

At present, I have two 3U servers, two disc vaults (one of which is a player), an M300 and an older 5000 series player.

Here's the problem, though: over the past 10+ years, I've put a lot of money into my Kaleidescape system. I've upgraded servers and drives a number of times (and I'm still "behind" with mostly 3, 4 and 6TB drives). I've bought content from the store when appropriate.

But as a "movie lover", most of my discs are actually ones with significant special features - Criterion, Arrow, obscure films from Second Run. They're just not available from the store. And many store versions are stripped of their extra features.

So, I'd be paying significantly more for less "content". Even with discs, I'm paying something like $14/slot just to "hold a disc" (quite literally) to prove I'm "legal". Add that to the cost to store the contents (and to upgrade that storage over teh years), and the constant 500W+ of power needed just to run it, and there's a lot of cost involved - and while I love my Kaleidescape system (I really do!), I have to recognize that:

- The difference between a full-resolution UHD/DV/HDR download and a UHD/DV/HDR stream, while noticeable, isn't necessarily significant enough to justify the cost differential.
- I'm not part of the Yacht Set: a connection is always available and thus off-premises streaming is an option
- Uncertainty with regard to licensing and content availability is worrisome
- I've got to plan and budget to replace drives as they fail, which is expensive when it happens

An example: I'd love to replace one of my servers with a loaded 1U+. It'd have a lower chance of failure, a newer chassis, and would use significantly less power. But doing so would cost something like $15K...in addition to what I paid for the 3U.

So: do I budget to keep my Premiere system running well, or to get 4K movies without all the special features, that I could get for less streaming, with slightly less quality but the commentaries (etc) that I enjoy?

Anyway - it's a tough spot to be in...

 

[cinelife]

I think your post answers your own question. Most of your post is indicating the financial aspects of ownership have you concerned. Frankly, to me it looks like a list of the reasons you think it's time to move on, maybe to streaming??

There will always be trade-offs in dealing with content, and content delivery services. By now, most of us enthusiasts know the difference in the different services (Apple TV, Netflix, VUDU, etc,) and Kaleidescape, so I won't list the positives and negatives of each.

I think by now most of us have already done the cost/benefit analysis in evaluating whether to remain in the K ecosystem or move to a different service. Most decided to stay, and in doing so either added a Strato to their Premiere system, or moved to Encore completely (upgrading their Premiere components, or selling), or decided to keep their Premiere systems, and may or may not have added a streaming service as well.

All Premiere owners face the same difficult questions:

HOW LONG WILL I BE ABLE TO MAINTAIN MY SYSTEM? The answer has a few considerations. The components in the system are clearly a factor. The 5U server was discontinued long ago, it has no real value except as a trade up component, or perhaps for someone that has a 5U and wants a backup 5U. There are no replacement drives available for the 5U
Similarly the 3U is on its way out, it is no longer sold or supported by K (with exception to a few that remain under warranty). The only functionally important repair part available for the 3U from K is the power supply kit (with fans) at a cost of $860 retail (price increase recently). 6TB drives are still available, but given what happened with the 5U drives, I assume not forever. The standard 1U is also no longer sold, and out-of-warranty units are no longer supported. Drives are the same as 3U.

The only Premiere server still being sold by Kaleidescape is the 1U+, so that server should be serviceable while under warranty. It also offers a model with 10TB drives. Older Premiere servers can be replicated to the 1U+ (subject to available storage).

K is still selling the M300 Player, M500 Player, and the Vaults, so some Premiere components are still. K does also offer an out-of-warranty replacement service for some Premiere components, subject to availability (basically older equipment returned from upgrades, or exchanges, is "remanufactured" and made available for the OOW exchange service (prices vary).

The other consideration is how much money are you willing to spend to maintain the system? Obviously, personal finances come into play here, but I think to a large extent this is also driven by a desire to maintain the "collection," as discussed in my next comment.

The 2nd difficult question for Premiere owners is:
WHAT DO I DO WITH MY COLLECTION IF I MOVE TO ENCORE (or if concerned about Premiere longevity).
To some extent the answer is dictated by the size of your collection. The larger the collection, the more disappointed you will likely be, because it's less likely that all of your titles will be available in the Store, and those that are, and not UV/DD, will cost you money to put into an Encore component.
You can of course hedge a little in keeping Premiere by perhaps moving to a 1U+ server, and upgrading older players to gain a longer warranty.

All of that said, the other option is to do what many of us have done, add Strato and Co-Star, work with both systems, do what you can to maintain your Premiere system for as long as possible, while at the same time slowly adding some of your more important movies to Encore using Digital Offers, etc..

All of these options involve money, no way around that, but given what you own, you already know that, so it comes back to my original comment about cost/benefit, and only you can really decide that aspect when evaluating options.

Jim

(Note: Much of what I wrote above is to help educate others, not necessarily you, I know you already understand these issues.)

 

[Mark H]

Some good points made by Jim and others and as an owner of 2 large legacy environments consisting of several 3U servers spread across my 2 homes together with a small Encore / Co-Star environment I have some of the dilemas above and some additional ones. Cost is an issue and I still hate the high electricity consumption of the legacy servers and yet it is not my biggest dilemma.

On my Premier system there is close to 7000 DVD / Blu Rays worth of films and TV series and 2200 CD's so I do hope that the components have a considerable life yet albeit out of warranty. Given the proprietary nature of the hardware even down to the 'pixie dust' applied to standard enterprise drives I am captive to a company that to survive has changed it's business model but regardless of the survival the end point is the same, proprietary equipment that can't be maintained with standard server components and this is the biggest dilemma I believe we legacy owners face unless information is available to be able to use enterprise drives from the market once they are no longer available from Kaleidescape.

Migrating to a host of the 1U+ servers is an option but the proprietary nature of the drives leads to the same endpoint albeit a little later on so why would you make that capital investment?

Kaleidescape is a US based company and very much focused on their US customer base with Canada second and UK third (nothing for Europe despite a potential customer base larger than the US). I say nothing for Europe which is based upon their current store 'location's' and purchasing restrictions. Unlike Amazon (mass market Vs niche which I get but it is just a version of film - physical rather than download) where I can buy a disk from any number of their geographic locations for postal delivery to add to my system

4K is nice, for some films very nice but for much of the material there isn't a massive difference at least to my eyes despite having some very good viewing platforms installed. Sound tracks do add to the experience but again this is hit and miss and often the HD version has better sound.

With only the store as the route especially if outside the US and based upon my taste / my desire to upgrade to downloaded versions I am having trouble filling the hard drives of the my 2 Strato players that have hard drives so a Terra regardless of price has limited incentive to own.

The store is a great revenue generation stream but but without more material globally available even the Encore range outside the US has limited appeal and cost justification hard to reconcile.

Less about cost benefit for some (OK me) and more about being able to simply enjoy entertainment for the years to come. That is my biggest dilemma about Kaleidescape ownership (Premier or Encore).

Ramble over..........

Mark

 

[AlienW]

HOW LONG WILL I BE ABLE TO MAINTAIN MY SYSTEM?

Hopefully for a good long time... K, if you are listening, please do not cut off replacement disks for the 1u and 3u servers. While the 5u used small (by today's standards) drives with the obsolete 40 pin PATA interface, the 1u and 3u use modern 6tb SATA drives. These will continue to be readily commercially available for years to come. At some point these systems will be declared un-supported but how about this... K, you could sell the bare drives for these servers, initialized, with a 90 day warranty and no other support. You can then drop the price of the drives by half, I will install the drive into the sled myself, and everyone will be happy!