No KScape hardware yet, where to start?

[SimonSays]

As above, I'm new to Kaleidescape, and currently have NO hardware from them.

As many of you however, I still have boxes full of DVDs, Blu-rays, HD DVD (yup), and 4K Discs.
I mostly migrated to Apple iTunes movies and TV shows, which is fine for a good 65" TV and my Onkyo with Dolby Atmos, but as an audiophile, I can totally appreciate there is better quality out there. My 4K player is an Oppo UDP-203, and there is a difference compared to streaming from any of the popular platforms, for sure. So Kaleidescape as a next step in quality is logical for me.

Having watched quite a bit of YouTube videos, it's obvious that the current Strato and Terra systems are the best choice, but what about my physical media?
I can't quite justify the ~$10K entry price to use on my 65" TV, plus it doesn't support physical media.

The way I understand it, the old series of components was called Premiere, and the current range is called Encore.

Is it correct that Encore never had a disc-player?

So if I wanted to start buying used equipment to support my physical media (Both Europe and US regions, by the way, as I moved from EU to US a few years back), what should I get?
And with the D2D program, can I already upgrade to the 4K version, even if I'm only using an HD KScape system? Just to avoid buying digital versions twice.

I do have some rarer DVDs/BDs that are likely not on the KScape store, so importing some of those might be useful too.

Not sure on the exact number of physical media, but a few hundred, likely.

After buying a bigger house and building the movie theater, I'll set a budget aside for the then latest version of hardware, but it may be best for me to start smaller now, and get the D2D program started before the old hardware becomes too unreliable.

 

[Transepoch]

Is it correct that Encore never had a disc-player?

The short answer is no. Altos have a slot, but it is primarily for cataloging, and it will never import. Further, you can connect disc vaults (disc servers when on the Encore side of the house) for playback.

If you only expect to have a few hundred discs that cannot be converted, then it is likely a bit blurrier on whether you want to play them from drive or have the ability to import (more than the 320 discs a vault can hold and importing will become more important.)

Multi-region is probably another piece of the puzzle to decide earlier, particularly how it splits by format. Regions matter when importing DVDs or when playing BDs. Depending on the timing & split you may be able to get by with flipping regions or needing a dedicated piece to accommodate them long-term.

Once those are settled, the optimum design will be clearer.

 

[seaninde]

You have 2 choices. Stick with the newer system (Encore) and re-purchase any movies you have on disc right now as downloads or do what I did and create a hybrid system of both the Premiere and Encore Systems. Using a Co-Star switch you can meld both systems and have the best of both worlds as long as you buy a Grandfathered Premiere system you can rip your DVDs and Blu-Rays. The integration is seamless and automatic between the systems.
Couple of caveats though:

You can only rip DVD and Blu-Ray, no 4K discs. Any 4K stuff you just have to re-purchase and download to the Encore system. The Premiere system never had a 4K/Ultra Disc player.

In order to play Blu-Rays, you have to have a disc vault to store them in. The disc must be present in the vault to play them (even though it does not use the disc to play from, just to verify you own it).

DVD's can be ripped and not have to be stored in a vault (as long as it is a grandfathered Premiere system).

You will need at least the following Kaleidescape components to get started with a hybrid system.

Premiere server (1U or 3U)
Premiere Player
Premiere Disc Vault (if you need to rip/store Blu-Rays). (They made just a Vault and also a Vault/Player combo unit)
Strato Server (Server or server Player combo. If combo, then you don't need the extra player. Combos have limited storage depending on your needs)
Strato Player (if not the combo unit)
Co-Start Switch

If you need multiple viewing locations, then you need more players. Of course, you need all the basics (server rack, ethernet cabling, HDMI cables, Power protection/Conditioner, etc.

is it worth it? I think it is. All my media ready to go, never touch discs again. The Kaleidescape User interface/GUI is the best.

Hope that helps.

Sean

 

[k2tsai]

There's an older thread by Substance which I used as a guide when I started: Suggest me a system

I also started my own thread to figure out the Encore side after I had started collecting the Premiere components: Another newbie system

Cheers,
- Ken

 

[SimonSays]

Thanks everyone

So ideally I'd need to find a Server 1500 or 5000, grandfathered, plus a player with disc drive (M500?), and then a co-star and strato system?

 

[cinelife]

As mentioned by others here, if you plan to import and playback content on Blu-ray discs, it's best to get an M700 Vault instead of the M500. The M700 has a built in M-class (i.e. BR capable) player, so it not only imports and plays back that content, but it also helps meet the "BR must be present during playback" requirement by "Storing" your BR discs (that's why it's referred to as a Vault). If you used only an M500, you can import and playback BR discs, BUT, each time you want to playback a stored BR movie you'd have to locate the physical disc and put it in the M500's tray so the optical drive can read it and verify you still own the disc. The content playback will still be from the K Server through the player, and not the optical drive, but the disc must be verified as present before playback starts.

If you want to view all of your stored content from both systems "on-screen" at the same time, you will also need a Co-Star license. Those come in the form of a physical Co-Star Switch Kit, or a Co-Star license that opens up that capability in a compatible Lumagen Video Processor, or Crestron system. Those are purchased from Kaleidescape by your dealer.

I've sent you a PM with my contact info, happy to answer additional questions or clarify any of the info you received.

Jim

 

[Oldred]

I still think Kaleidescape has to come up with an alternate disk verification process for its own sake and for its customers. After much angst early on about it, I was provided a loan vault and everything went relatively smoothly for my legacy collection and so the pressure for me is off but it seems such an obviously poor way to do it. I.e. Using unsupported kit that is typically going to fail during the process, disk jams etc. hopefully they will sort that out going forward still. The current approach seems so out of step with its quality brand positioning. I wonder if they are just hoping the problem will go away but I don’t think it will.

Being past that for the most part (I missed a bunch of disks I realised) is a relief and I do appreciate the efforts to loan the vault.

 

[SimonSays]

Thanks,
If I were to get the M700 Vault, I suppose I still need a player to connect to my TV / Projector?

 

[cinelife]

Thanks,
If I were to get the M700 Vault, I suppose I still need a player to connect to my TV / Projector?

No, the M700 Vault has a built in Player. There is an HDMI out from the Vault to your display (or intermediate device if using a Receiver, Processor, or other device. (See my earlier post above.)

Jim

 

[MikeKobb]

Just to make sure it's crystal clear, there are two Kaleidescape components that hold 320 discs:
M-700: Disc reader/carousel with integrated M-class player
DV-700: This is just the disc reader/carousel, no player

These two components look effectively identical from the front. It's pretty easy to tell the difference from the back because (besides the model label!) one of them has a bunch of A/V connections and the other one does not.

 

[J.Green]

And to expand a bit on what Mike posted above:
The player in the M700 will only work when it is grouped with a Premiere server. If you group an M700 to an Encore system then the vault will behave like a DV700 and the player functionality will be disabled.

 

[Vodder]

@SimonSays Well I think you start right here… skip everything and go straight to ”epic mode”

SOLD: - Full Encore/Premiere System

For many reasons I'm deciding to reduce down quite drastically the number of components in my system. Therefore I'm offering the following as one combined Encore/Premiere system. I will also split and am open to offers and different “combos”(pricing further down) Complete Encore System: Terra...

www.kscapeowners.com

 

[Substance]

I don’t think its possible to stay under $10k if you plan to maintain a disc library of over 150 discs.

Dv700 - $2,500
Cinema One 4TB - $1,500
Strato 6TB - $4,000
CoStar - $500

Total: $8,500

DV700 can hold 320 discs. Cinema One with 4TB (largest) will import and max out at around 100 discs. You can add another Cinema One with 4TB for another 100 disc import capacity. Maximum 2x Cinema One are allowed in a system. Cinema One has a built in player and a disc drive. There are 2 generations of Cinema Ones. You want the 2nd generation one.

M700 - $3,000
1U Server 12TB - $3,000
Strato 6TB - $4,000
CoStar - $500

Total: $10,500

1U server can be configured for 18TB but I have never seen one for sale on the used market, Even 12TB is somewhat rare. M700 is preferred here because it has a built in player but a DV700+M300(or M500) combo will also do. 320 discs take roughly 12TB space when imported. You can add more servers later to scale up. You can buy an empty server and populate it to the largest 18TB. Note that you have to buy the drives from Kaleidescape. They are 6 to 7 times more expensive than off the shelf HDDs. 1U server uses 1 drive for RAID parity and it is not usable so the max size with 4x 6 TB HDDs is 18TB.

Alto 6TB - $2,000
Strato 6TB - $4,000
CoStar - $500

Total: $6,500

This is probably the least expensive option. Alto can play discs instead of importing hence you don’t need large HDDs. You can catalog discs so they appear on your GUI but you need to insert each disc before starting playback. The built in 6TB drive is good for 160 digital store downloads. Strato 6TB can do 90 UHD downloads.


Strato-C + Terra-C 6TB - $9,000 is probably the better investment. It’s got the super fast download speeds so you can offload movies and download as you need which would make up for the small HDD. Sometime down the road, you probably would want to add a M700+1U server combo for your disc library.

 

[SimonSays]

But doesn't the Co-Star allow me to play content from the Premiere (1U and DV700) through the Strato 6TB?

Dv700 - $2,500
Cinema One 4TB - $1,500
Strato 6TB - $4,000
CoStar - $500

Total: $8,500 $7,000

 

[k2tsai]

Co-Star connects the Premiere and Encore together, so the Encore on-screen display shows all the titles capable of being played.

When you play Premiere content, the Co-Star switches to the HDMI connected to the Premiere player. When the Premiere content is done or stopped, the Co-Star switches back to the Encore HDMI to show the menus again.

 

[SimonSays]

Does the DV700 or M700 work natively in an Encore system, or do I need a Premiere server plus co-star to play discs?
Given the fact you need K-approved drives for the KServers, and those are no longer supported, I'm a bit reluctant to spend money buying, maintaining and running a KServer, just for DVD or BD quality.

For DVDs and BDs that are not available on the store, I'm limited to the physical disc quality anyway, so I may as well play them natively from the M700/DV700, and not import them. As they are catalogued and become available on the store, I can then phase out DVDs / BDs piecemeal.

 

[Substance]

But doesn't the Co-Star allow me to play content from the Premiere (1U and DV700) through the Strato 6TB?

Dv700 - $2,500
Cinema One 4TB - $1,500
Strato 6TB - $4,000
CoStar - $500

Total: $8,500 $7,000

CoStar is literally an HDMI switch. It has 2 inputs, 1 for a Strato, 1 for a legacy player and 1 output to your display.

While viewing the GUI and anything on the Strato, the switch remains on input 1. When you select to play a movie which resides on the legacy system, the switch automatically selects input 2. The screen goes blank for a couple of seconds and the movie starts from the legacy player. This happens as if two players are one.

To go more technical, the Strato player sends the command to switch in its HDMI-CEC metadata. It’s pretty brilliant. To enable this software function, you have to Kaleidescape a license fee and use their branded HDMI switch with the custom firmware which looks for this specific HDMI-CEC metadata.

You can get the CoStar license for a Lumagen RadiancePro, Trinnov Attitude and some Crestron device instead too. The fee is similar. These manufacturers worked closely with Kaleidescape and their hardware can detect the switch commands. Actually I quoted $500 for CoStar but that’s for a used one. I believe it retails more like $800.


Having said all that, you still need 2 players, 1 Strato and 1 legacy which can be one of these,

M300 (no disc, no storage)
M500 (single disc, no storage)
M700 ( 320 discs, no storage)

These above systems needs a legacy server to play their contents from. These can be 1U and 3U servers. Grandfathered systems can play DVDs without the actual physical disc in the player but Blu-ray discs needs to be present in the player to initiate playback from any servers. That’s why the M700 with its 320 disc capacity makes sense.

For instance I have 4x DV700s which I store 1280 discs. I have a 3U server with 72TB storage. I can play any of these discs from the server. The player knows the disc I want is in one of my DV700 and authenticates my disc ownership immediately.

You may ask why bother importing(ripping) the disc to the serf if you still need the disc to play. It has a couple of advantages. The discs get minimal wear and tear. The Server doesn’t read the entire disc on each playback. Since the movie data comes from the server’s HDDs, it can stream to up to 15 players around your home and they each can watch different instances of the same movie if they want. I mean it’s really a copy right thing. It would be better if you didn’t need the disc but you do. Nothing we can do about this. I like the fact that the movies start immediately from the HDD.

There are also two stand alone systems that technically don’t belong to neither Encore nor Premiere lines. These two systems also work with the CoStar switch. But remember, CoStar switch has only 1 input for a legacy player so you must choose your player wisely.

Cinema One (gen 2) which has a single disc drive and 4TB storage. Think of it like a mini Premiere system but a single disc player and much smaller storage server put into a single chassis. It can not read movies from other servers but only another Cinema One (gen 2). The max limit is 2 Cinema Ones. It can not direct play Blu-rays. It must import(rip) to its 4TB HDD first which can take only about 100 movies before it’s full. A second Cinema One would double this to 200 movies. You have to insert the disc before any playback.

Alto is advertised to be a part of the encore line up but only limited basis. It is physically a Cinema One. They look identical but the software is different. There is a 6TB version. The Alto can not import any discs to its internal HDD but can direct play DVDs and BDs. The internal HDD is strictly for digital downloads. Up to 4 Altos are allowed in a system which limits its storage to 4x6TB. You can also add a Terra Server to expand its storage. It’s a nice way to add a disc drive to a Strato system if all you want is to play discs from the disc itself. Alto can not import or share content with any of the Premiere systems.

No Kaleidescape equipment can import or play 4K UHD discs. You still need your Oppo for those.

 

[Substance]

Does the DV700 or M700 work natively in an Encore system, or do I need a Premiere server plus co-star to play discs?
Given the fact you need K-approved drives for the KServers, and those are no longer supported, I'm a bit reluctant to spend money buying, maintaining and running a KServer, just for DVD or BD quality.

For DVDs and BDs that are not available on the store, I'm limited to the physical disc quality anyway, so I may as well play them natively from the M700/DV700, and not import them. As they are catalogued and become available on the store, I can then phase out DVDs / BDs piecemeal.

M700 loses its player functions when paired with an Encore system. It practically turns into a DV700.

Encore system can only play DVDs from a DV700. It doesn’t have the software to play BDs. BDs won’t even show on your Strato GUI.

If all you want is DVDs, you can buy a Strato and a DV700. Strato can play the DVDs, that’s all.

Alto can play Blu-rays from its own disc drive and a DV700 but needs a CoStar switch to pair with the Strato. Alto can use up to 2 DV700s. If you have more than 640 discs, Alto will not be able to accommodate all.

 

[Rooster]

can an m700 be added to a strato to catalog and play blu rays/dvd’s?

 

[Substance]

can an m700 be added to a strato to catalog and play blu rays/dvd’s?

Yes It can catalog Blu-rays but can not play them. DVDs will catalog and play on the Strato.