New vs Old: KCINEMA-1 vs New C1

[justingn]

So with the introduction of the new C1, I realize now that owning a K-Scape system is within reach of my budget. That said, the lack of RAID or user-serviceable drives within the new C1 is a huge turn off, especially given what I've read about the previous C1 with 4 2.5" Hard Disks. Combined with the fact that it won't integrate with any M-Class architecture beyond the DV700 for BD storage, I'm starting to think the current C1 isn't the magic bullet I'd hoped for.

That said, I'm soliciting opinions/information about the old KCINEMA-1 (and its HC model). From what limited info I've gleamed during a Google Search, it seems to be compatible with M-Class hardware and servers (or at least provides a migratory path to them), which is a big plus. Its DVD-Only import mechanism also isn't a downside, especially considering the size of my DVD collection (animation buff) and how BD storage is handled anyhow across the K-Scape environment. So my main questions are these:

1. I've heard whisperings and complaints about the KCINEMA-1's reliability. Was it poorly built? Did it have major bugs with the software and/or hardware?
2. What sort of integration with the current M-Class hardware is supported? Can I use it as a DVD server now, then integrate it into a proper BD M-Class setup as refurb gear appears or prices come down?
3. Disk availability seems to be a major concern, as I don't see them listed at all on K-Scape's store. Are they easily available from dealers? If not, is there a way to repurpose 2.5" SATA or SAS drives into the carts (NOT to copy content off of - that's illegal!)?
4. I see it has HDMI output up to 1080p60. If a BD vault is added to the network, will it support playback of imported BDs on another server over the network? Will it do PAL/SECAM encoded material, or NTSC only? How does the internal scaler compare? Does it carry bitstream DVD Audio as well?
5. Any other nuggets of info? Warnings? Cautions?

Thanks for the advice!

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

I can only answer a couple of your questions as I never owned a KCINEMA system.

2. You can imagine the old KCINEMA as a small capacity server with a DVD level KPLAYER inside one chassis. BluRay can be stored on it, but only played back on an M-series player if you have met the vault/disc in tray requirement.
3. Replacement hard drives are still available for the old KCINEMA-1.
4. The KCINEMA will not play back BluRay content, even if it is imported from a K-VAULT. It is a DVD player. The only HD content I would expect it to play would be the Kalahari videos as they were encoded in MPEG-2 and I could play those from my old players.

 

[justingn]

I can only answer a couple of your questions as I never owned a KCINEMA system.

2. You can imagine the old KCINEMA as a small capacity server with a DVD level KPLAYER inside one chassis. BluRay can be stored on it, but only played back on an M-series player if you have met the vault/disc in tray requirement.
3. Replacement hard drives are still available for the old KCINEMA-1.
4. The KCINEMA will not play back BluRay content, even if it is imported from a K-VAULT. It is a DVD player. The only HD content I would expect it to play would be the Kalahari videos as they were encoded in MPEG-2 and I could play those from my old players.

I figured getting HD content out of it was not possible (upscaled DVDs aside), and the current disc-in-tray requirement leaves it a moot point anyhow. The main reason I'm eyeing the old KCINEMA-1 is that my DVD collection outnumbers BD 4:1 (on top of the disc requirement), and can integrate with the Premiere/M-Class line.

So that answers question 2 and part of question 4. My remaining concerns are the reliability rumors I've heard, the cost of replacement cartridges (I'll ask a dealer if it gets to that point), and the capabilities of the video scaler.

 

[djb_rh]

The absolute cheapest way to start with a K system that can scale to Premier is an old KCINEMA.

That includes if you wanted BD in one room...just get a KCINEMA as your server (and it'll work as a planer for DVDs in one room somewhere) and in the room you want BD content you add a M700. So that gives you your required vault and is a single room player.

You can then add M class players and upgrade fairly easily to a "real" server if you want. But while you can still get drives for the KCINEMA, I think there's a limit to the size drive that it will take, right? I don't recall for sure on that as I've also never owned one.

But obviously you don't need the Vault if you're gonna wait on BD stuff for now.

I would think if there were reliability issues with them that we'd know about it on this forum. *shrug*


--Donnie

 

[justingn]

The absolute cheapest way to start with a K system that can scale to Premier is an old KCINEMA.

That includes if you wanted BD in one room...just get a KCINEMA as your server (and it'll work as a planer for DVDs in one room somewhere) and in the room you want BD content you add a M700. So that gives you your required vault and is a single room player.

You can then add M class players and upgrade fairly easily to a "real" server if you want. But while you can still get drives for the KCINEMA, I think there's a limit to the size drive that it will take, right? I don't recall for sure on that as I've also never owned one.

But obviously you don't need the Vault if you're gonna wait on BD stuff for now.

I would think if there were reliability issues with them that we'd know about it on this forum. *shrug*


--Donnie

Yeah, I figured as much. I've heard the odd whisper on other sites that some users weren't satisfied with the reliability of the unit, but no details as to why (which is why I asked here). As for the drives, I'd guess that they top out at 1TB, since they're 2.5" Laptop/Server Disks, and the product was discontinued before the advent of 1.5 and 2TB drives (which is why I asked if I can use my own, if they were no longer for sale). A shame, since 4 2TB drives in there would make it a damn capable machine, and help me hold off a 1U Server that much longer.

 

[Mr.Poindexter]

Well, it remains to be seen on the higher capacity 2.5" drives, but it might happen eventually if there comes a time when the price difference is negligible and they just sub in 2TB drives for replacements or new drives.

They still sell drives for the 5U server so I seriously doubt we will see a loss of hard drive support for the old Cinema One. In fact you can now get 1TB drives for the 5U server...

 

[bedbuged]

As for the drives, I'd guess that they top out at 1TB, since they're 2.5" Laptop/Server Disks, and the product was discontinued before the advent of 1.5 and 2TB drives

Yes. The largest size drive available is a 1tb. These came standard with the 'HC' model that was released just before the unit was discontinued.

 

[Transepoch]

To finish up on your 4th point, you can side-step over to the spec thread (here: http://www.kscapeowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=419) and see mini/KCinema-systems will do all of those other things you asked about. At least, spitting out NTSC/PAL is generally subject to how happy your display will be about receiving it.

From my time playing with some K6000s (pretty sure I tried one directly into the TV) the scaler is quite competent, but still subject to the realities of SD content on an HD display.

 

[justingn]

To finish up on your 4th point, you can side-step over to the spec thread (here: http://www.kscapeowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=419) and see mini/KCinema-systems will do all of those other things you asked about. At least, spitting out NTSC/PAL is generally subject to how happy your display will be about receiving it.

From my time playing with some K6000s (pretty sure I tried one directly into the TV) the scaler is quite competent, but still subject to the realities of SD content on an HD display.

Ah! I wasn't aware the KSYSTEM-120 was identical to the KCINEMA-1, that's my bad. Yeah, I'm not expecting miracles with SD content and live action stuff, but I am hoping it handles animation well. Then again, anything is better than my current setup with the Marantz SR6003. Last time I ever trust Marantz with video processing...

 

[JohnJ]

So with the introduction of the new C1, I realize now that owning a K-Scape system is within reach of my budget. That said, the lack of RAID or user-serviceable drives within the new C1 is a huge turn off, especially given what I've read about the previous C1 with 4 2.5" Hard Disks. Combined with the fact that it won't integrate with any M-Class architecture beyond the DV700 for BD storage, I'm starting to think the current C1 isn't the magic bullet I'd hoped for.

That said, I'm soliciting opinions/information about the old KCINEMA-1 (and its HC model). From what limited info I've gleamed during a Google Search, it seems to be compatible with M-Class hardware and servers (or at least provides a migratory path to them), which is a big plus. Its DVD-Only import mechanism also isn't a downside, especially considering the size of my DVD collection (animation buff) and how BD storage is handled anyhow across the K-Scape environment. So my main questions are these:

1. I've heard whisperings and complaints about the KCINEMA-1's reliability. Was it poorly built? Did it have major bugs with the software and/or hardware?
2. What sort of integration with the current M-Class hardware is supported? Can I use it as a DVD server now, then integrate it into a proper BD M-Class setup as refurb gear appears or prices come down?
3. Disk availability seems to be a major concern, as I don't see them listed at all on K-Scape's store. Are they easily available from dealers? If not, is there a way to repurpose 2.5" SATA or SAS drives into the carts (NOT to copy content off of - that's illegal!)?
4. I see it has HDMI output up to 1080p60. If a BD vault is added to the network, will it support playback of imported BDs on another server over the network? Will it do PAL/SECAM encoded material, or NTSC only? How does the internal scaler compare? Does it carry bitstream DVD Audio as well?
5. Any other nuggets of info? Warnings? Cautions?

Thanks for the advice!

I thought I would add in my comments as I have owned a C1 for the past ~3 years.

I started out with the C1 and then added an M700 to be able to play BR content. Of course once I started adding BR content I needed to add more capacity and added in a 1U server and will be upgrading to a 3U server later this year.

However, the reason I have kept my C1 is that I use it for multiroom musis (main zone + two extra zones that are music only). I am just in the process of upgrading to 4 - 1TB drives mainly for the new 3 year warranty but also for additional capacity.

But to your questions:

1) I have had NO problem with my C1 for the past three years. It has worked flawlessly.
2) You can use it as a DVD and CD server. To add BR capability you can just add a M700 and be able to play blu-ray that are loaded in the vault. Initally I had mainly DVD's and about 10 BR discs. For the first year, I would continuously swat out the 10 BR discs with new ones as the mood hit. The M700 was ideal for this as I just loaded up the 10 BR discs one night and the next night they were all loaded. Also ideal for loading CD's and DVD's (no more manual loading). Later on I added the 1U and now am moving towards only BR content.
3) As I said, I am currently upgrading the C1 to 1TB drives so they are still available and they K said they would be supporting on an ongoing basis and recommend upgrading to get the new 3 year warranty.
4) The only HD content that the C1 will play is Kalahari as Mr. Poindexter said. It does upconvert all DVD's to 1080p. It does do PAL/SECAM in addition to NTSC. I have a Lumagen Radiance XE-3D video processor with my projector. I didn't see much difference when I went straight to the projector with the C1 on SD content. It has very good internal video processing on its own.
5) With the old C1, I was able to program my controller using the network codes that K provides. I am able to control 1 mail zone (video and audio) and two remote zones (audio only). I have never had any issues with this product and when I added the 1U server it was all seemless.

Regards,
John

 

[justingn]

Thanks for the replies everyone, I really appreciate it.

Well, it sounds like the old Cinema One is what's best for my current needs, while not cutting me off from the Premiere Line should my housing and finance situations improve in the future. At the very least, it'll let me clear up some space on my media shelves by moving the DVDs to the closet (Oh who am I kidding, they'll stay right where they are). Now to track one down at a reasonable price!

Thanks again for all the help!