Looking to purchase - ISO purchase advice

[TivoSloth]

Been lurking here for a while to learn about the Kscape system. I generally understand the pricing levels of various Kscape configurations. My current dealer and I are trying to set up a demo here in Northern VA. Purchase is about 2 months out right around Christmas time. I've seen the Kscape experience video, the CEDIA US & UK video clips (cinenow), and read most of the manuals on the Kscape site. I've read the posts at avsforum and nearly all of the posts here.

After considering all of this material, I've been thinking of several configurations that will give me the best bang for the buck, because I just have to buy a Kscape system (and I haven't even seen a live demo yet). I know the system is costly, but I want to spend less than $40k, including install and dvd import of my entire collection. I have a little less than 1100 dvd titles, and based on different TV series, etc., the number of actual DVDs is probably close to 1250. These are all stored in numbered Slappa cases at present.

I have 2 thoughts. First spend a little and go with the 1u server maxed out with an extra movie player for the bedroom. This keeps the cost way down, let's me play with the system while storing 300 most played DVDs. I can then import new purchases into the system while purging recently played movies out of the system to make way for the new DVDs on a more or lesss revolving basis. Not the most ideal setup, but cost-effective.

2nd thought is to bite the bullet and go with the 5u server and then possibly add a 2nd player for the bedroom. I don't need the music option, and won't use it, but I guess it comes bundled. I'd prefer not to be forced to purchase the music license. I have six Sonos zones hardwired throughout the house and chose that primarily because of the handheld controller. I don't expect that the Kscape music solution would add anything beyond what we enjoy from Sonos. Passing on the music option, if possible, would save me over over $2k which is nearly 2 more HDs. I then fill the 5u server with (8) 750gig HDs and start importing. I don't want to purchase the bulk loader, so I guess my only solution is to rent/borrow one from my dealer? After the initial 8 HDs are filled, I purchase additional HDs two at a time. The initial fill will probably take about 1 month. In less than 6 weeks I could have the entire collection uploaded.

Are there any Kscape add-ons that I can forego or should consider in building this system? What do I get at the 2 base prices for the 1u and 5u servers? Since I'm going to be running out of 5u slots quickly by importing my entire collection and will have to add on sooner rather than later, is it better to go with the 1u and wait for a newly designed 5u server that might be on the horizon in the next year? Any specific questions to ask during the demo or features I should ask to see that I might not be aware of?

For me, the Kscape 5u setup will cost as much as my entire media room, components and all so I'm trying to consider everything because this would be a major outlay. I would be giving up the projector upgrade for a year (have a Dwin TV4 now). Because most of you have already purchased a system, would you have done anything differently that might help my decision? My wife is saying that it's better to walk before I run, but for me, the 1u server will be a costly mistake if I decide I really want the entire collection on the 5u server so we're at a major decision point.

Thanks in advance,
Jay

 

[cinelife]

Hi Jay,
Welcome to the forum. I sent you a PM with additional information.

Jim

 

[josh]

Hi Jay, welcome to the board!

While we're all biased here, I'm sure you won't regret your decision whatever you decide!

Clearly, you're thinking very thoroughly, and practically, about this purchase, which is wise. Everyone's priorities (and resources) are different, so I'm sure you'll get a variety of opinions.

But clearly, you're into having easy access to lots of DVDs (and CD's, but happy with what you already have on the latter).

My advice given what you've stated is probably that you'd quickly find that you'd outgrow the 1U server. While you're right that you can "cycle" stuff on and off the ~300 DVD capacity of the 1U, I think you'd find that it's quite hard to regularly decide what to dump to make room for new stuff. I go through the same process when I'm reluctant to shell out more $ for another disk, but ultimately I still have the option when the "dump" list is too painful that I can choose to add another disk. The 1U server will stop that option (or at least make it VERY expensive).

So I'd strongly encourage you to consider holding out just a little longer, saving up a little more, to get the cheapest 5U server. This really comes from hearing how into your Sonos you are, and that your movie library is 1100 DVDs, that you watch TV series on DVD, and you catalog and archive your DVDs today.

Should you wait until the 5U gets a redesign? Hard to justify that unless you really care about matching industrial design, as the servers won't fundamentally change even when K rolls out HD-DVD/BluRay support. (as far as I know).

As for Kscape music server not adding much over Sonos - I'm not one to ask as I haven't used Sonos, however I've NEVER seen anything that can do the new Genre-based playlists, teach you about artists and bands that you own, including discographies, biographies, objective reviews, etc. It's been an incredible way to "rediscover" my own music collection. Possibly Sonos does this and more, or has other things that are valuable, but you should get a good demo of Kscape music system from someone who REALLY knows all its features. (not all dealers do).

As for other advice from those of us who have already bought, I don't think I'd do anything differently. You benefit over most of us because you'll now presumably be able to buy 750gb drives over our 500gb (or less) drives, and you can buy the MoviePlayer 2 and have one less component and additional features.

One thing I made a small mistake was that I dedicated 5U of rack space in my home theater for the server, but recently took it out and moved it into my home office. While it looked cool (subjective) in the rack, it takes up SO much space that it really isn't efficient. It can live anywhere on your home network, so mine's now off in the home office and I don't miss having it in the theater. Certainly shouldn't pay for custom rack enclosures for the server or anything like that.

If you want a 2nd player for the bedroom - here's an idea to save some money. You'll presumably have a MoviePlayer2 in the theater room, so all you really need in the bedroom is a MoviePlayer1. They have same decode capability and outputs. No reason for another loader in the bedroom. You might find a user here who'd like to save a rack-space unit by selling a MoviePlayer1 in order to get a MoviePlayer2. You might find a "bargain" (relative, of course) on a used MP1 if you get lucky. That won't amount to much savings, but maybe a few hundred bucks?

So if you're really not sure, I could see why you'd want to start with a 1U server and save probably an initial $8-10k. But in the longrun, you sound like someone who will outgrow it and therefore will shell out more to eventually add (or switch to) a 5U server.

Hope that's helpful...

--josh
p.s. where do you live? If bay area, I'm happy to demo my system for you if you'd like.

 

[josh]

Another way to save a little money if you do go for a 5U server... I'm betting a lot of people here will want to start swapping out 400gb and 500gb 5U cartridges for 750gb ones. There are people here who are maxed out and will find that their only choice to get more storage is to swap cartridges or bite the bullet and buy a whole new 5U server.

I'm betting you'll find some takers here who will sell discounted 250, 400, 500gb drives in the coming months.
--josh

 

[TivoSloth]

Thanks for your insights Josh. I'm in VA, but I do sometimes make it out to the west coast. I will think more about the movie option. The thing I like most about Sonos is the 2-way controller. Sonos certainly does not have all the options that K seems to offer for music.

You're certainly right about the movies. The current process of putting them in Slappa DVD cases and using DVD Profiler has outgrown the collection. I only find myself watching new purchases and then going to the print out or Profiler listings in rare instances (usually for guests). I hate to admit it, but my free time is spent watching movies (whether new or old) or catching up on televison with Tivo. I was torn because I could see myself trying to make a 1u server work, and it could, but I would always want access to everything I own. Managing a disc library and the K library when looking for something to watch might also make me second guess the decision about what to "dump" so I could upload other discs to the K system. The movieplayer1 idea makes sense because I don't need a reader for the bedroom.

The best decision may be to start with a smaller number of drives, forego a second player for the time being and just jump into a 5u server knowing that it will have more legs as I expand its capacity.

I've done the math so many different ways and keep coming back to the same place. I hope I'm not overstepping by stating my math based on MSRP. If I am, I do apologize in advance, but the prices seem to be fairly well advertised. Feel free to edit the post if I have posted anything inappropriate below. Here's my logic.

3 1u servers having 3 MP2s costs about $30k for 9 usable slots (essentially 3 starter 1u systems @ $10k each).

1 5u server plus 2 extra MPs costs about $30.5k for 11 usable slots (1 5u starter @ $22.5k plus 2 MPs at $4k each).

These numbers come from various K press releases and pricing from review systems that are widely circulated on the net and reflect MSRP. I'm not fishing for pricing info, just trying to explain what seems to me to be a valid comparison. I understand that the 5u configuration comes with a music license as well. I'm also assuming that the drive prices for both the 1u and 5u servers are the same.

So as I see it, with a 5u server, the pricing is the same except that you get 2 more usable slots and a music license for the same price over a similarly configured 1u setup. Am I missing something? Does anyone see a flaw in this reasoning that I'm overlooking?

For me, the music license of the 5u server setup would be a bonus, but not a necessity. The 2 extra server slots for the comparable 5u system are important though because that's about 240 extra dvds (750 GB drives) that can be stored over a similar multi-1u server setup. Trying to put a value on that is what I'm racking my brain over. The lower entry cost of going with multiple 1u servers is basically offset by the 2 extra slots and music license of the 5u server.

Thanks for the insights and keep them coming. Your input is most appreciated.

Jay

 

[josh]

I think your numbers seem about right, some of the dealer people here might be able to use their whizzy "configurator" application that Kscape gives them to double-check.

However, I think there might be a few corrections or things to think about:

1. The $9995 1U "Starter System" includes the 1U server and 2x250gb drives in it plus the MP2 and a license to either music or movies... there is an ability to UPGRADE from the 2x250 to 2x750gb drives, but I believe that's $750 each upgrade. Since you're quoting a $10k price, you're looking at a 2x250 setup. Given your large movie collection, you should NOT buy any 250gb drives... especially in the 1U servers, as you know you'll eventually wish you had 750s in those precious few slots and upgrading later is more expensive than the "swap" option you can do at purchase time.
2. A good piece of news for you is that you actually CAN get both movie license and music license in the 1U setup you described, for no extra $$. Since EACH starter system has a choice of music license or movie license, you should easily be able to have both systems on your 3-server setup. Once you have a license for ANY server, I believe all your servers can use it. So you should order your setup like 2 Starter Movie servers and 1 starter music server. That way you have both software licenses for your whole setup, same as if you bought a single 5U. No extra fee. (You should verify this, but I'm reasonably confident that a media-type license applies to all the servers in your LAN)

I think you should recalculate your setup assuming 750gb drives in the starter systems. You know you'll want to have 750s, so better to do it at purchase time where you get "credit" for not taking the default 250s. add $1500 to each 1U starter system to get it to come to you with 2x750s.

Why have 3 servers? Wouldn't it make more sense to buy 2 1U servers, each fully loaded with 750s and select one music license and one movie license?

I think you'd then have
Servers: $9995 x 2 = $20k
2 "750 gb upgrade swap" for each of 2 servers = $1500 x 2 = $3k
then consider adding 1-4 additional 750gb drives at $1245 each. If you want to max your 2 !U servers, you'd need 4 more = $5k

Remember, you're more efficient with 4 drives in each server rather than 2, since each server loses one whole drive for parity info. Better to have 2 servers with 4 disks each than 3 servers with 2 disks (or even 3 disks) each. You're always better off MAXING out a server before adding another server since you lose less space for parity data.

So with my setup above, you'd spend $28k and have 750gb x 3 usable drives in each server x 2 servers = 4.5tb storage. BUT you'd have one fewer movieplayers. If you really need a third MP, you could always add an MP1 or MP2 for $3.5k or $4k respecitvely.

Again, I'm not entirely sure about all the configuration options or prices... the only real way to know is find a friendly dealer who can run this through the Kscape configurator.

As you've calculated it, you could do fine by starting with a few 1U servers... but you'd have less upgrade space and lose more storage space to parity redundancy. So your numbers were close, but the 1U setup may be more favorable than you calculated due to a clever way to get a free music+movie setup I describe, but LESS favorable than you calculated due to the continual loss of more space for parity data as you add more 1U servers.

--josh

 

[ejfiii]

Hi guys. Just found this great resource. I am the KScape champion in my company and we are the largest integrator between Miami and NYC. I hope this type of post is allowed, if not moderators feel free to edit or remove.

Jay, have you thought about driving a bit for your demo and saving a bunch of money in your purchase? We don't have any sales tax in DE and are a two hour drive up 95 from DC (I grew up in Alexandria). While in the store we could go through the price list and the configurator together. We are open Saturday and Sunday if needed.

Either way, my email is listed and you can PM or reply here.

Good luck in your quest - there is no product in our industry like Kaleidescpae.

 

[bbooker]

Tivo,

Read the post and see you are looking to buy. I on the other hand am looking to sell. I have a KReader Kplayer and Kserver, with 12 750GB Drives and 6 player liscense. Many the kaleidescape dvd collections on it. interested?

 

[bbooker]

actually, I need to update that post. It is a kserver with 12 400GB drives, one player and one reader. and the drives will be empty. I am looking to sell this unit soon. save over 10k vs new purchase.

 

[TivoSloth]

ejf:

I may be able to make a trip to see you on Saturday, December 16. I'll send you a PM as the date moves closer. Been traveling alot lately.

bbooker:
Sent you a PM. I am always a little leary of buying used and I see that you're in Cali as well. Not an issue for me with the drives being empty because I have more than enough DVDs to fill up a unit. My main issue is that I would actually consider replacing the 400GB drives with 750GB drives, which would be a real costly swap out.

TivoSloth