Kaleidescape CEO discusses Apple 4K Announcement

[jmdls]

Hi, all!

I spent about an hour on the phone last night with Cheena discussing Apple's 4K TV announcement and his thoughts on how this would affect the market, the state of 4K in general, and thoughts about mass-market versus discerning clientele.

Think everyone here will enjoy hearing his perspective.

http://www.johnsciacca.com/apps/blog/show/44789273-kaleidescape-s-take-on-apple-tv-4k

Best,
John Sciacca

 

[steelman1991]

Thanks John an interesting read. Agree with much of his philosophy, but as a Kscape customer I would lol.

 

[JerryL]

Same here. I just wish the Strato could take HDR and convert to SDR.

As a customer I can tell you I would not expect to have my HD titles upgraded to UHD for free or even a small cost. Of course I would like that! But when you play in the higher end of any market you can expect more cost and diminishing returns. I still think Kaleidescape is more than worth it, but you have to understand to really appreciate the difference, you will need high quality playback equipment and enjoy having the best. For many people they are happy with a nice meal, and then there are those who want fine dining. Kaleidescape is fine dining.

 

[Noah Winter]

Jerry,

I have seen some other folks wanting to convert HDR to SDR but can't figure out why. Is it because your PJ doesn't do HDR?

 

[iansilv]

Apple TV is designed to sell content. Kaleidescape is designed for its users to consume it. I don't let my kids use the Apple TV without my supervision. Kaleidescape is different because I don't have to worry about them wandering in to something weird or inappropriate for their age, or being enticed to buy things instead of just watching a movie.

 

[RAV]

Here is an oddity - according to the specs there is no support in Apple TV 4K for Dolby Atmos or DTS:X (just Dolby Digital Plus 7.1).

 

[billygreen23]

Here is an oddity - according to the specs there is no support in Apple TV 4K for Dolby Atmos or DTS:X (just Dolby Digital Plus 7.1).

Next year's Apple TV Atmos will solve that

 

[steelman1991]

Next year's Apple TV Atmos will solve that

..... and they'll claim it as an 'innovation'

 

[Transepoch]

..... and they'll claim it as an 'innovation'

Only due to the way it seamlessly integrates sounds coming out of the speakers you plug-in.

 

[Croptop]

Only due to the way it seamlessly integrates sounds coming out of the speakers you plug-in.

But they'll have to be speakers with lightning connectors. Then the following year, Apple will demonstrate more courage and eliminate the speaker connection altogether and only work with wireless speakers.

 

[JerryL]

Jerry,

I have seen some other folks wanting to convert HDR to SDR but can't figure out why. Is it because your PJ doesn't do HDR?

Its because not every display can properly display HDR and thus, in this period of transition, it would be nice to have the same ability as some disc spinners, such as the Oppo.

My PJ is supposed to be able to display HDR but its depending on a new input card that can accept it. So why should I be unable to see the HDR titles while I wait for them to catch up?

I have almost no experience with HDR in the home, but from what I can tell, in some instances it can be problematic as the average picture brightness can be noticeably below SDR- yes leading to crushed whites and blacks by comparison. But maybe some people would prefer this.

I wonder if the Apple TV4K will support this conversion. My wild guess is yes, in the name of compatibility.

 

[scr3wlo0se]

This is my prospective as an fan, owner and dealer.

Well it's easy to show and tell clients the experience they get with Kscape in the showroom and in the home. Devices like the new AppleTV make after install a frustration. I have countless systems with clients that have little issue with cost. But the frustrations with content on the kscape verses appletv get so challenging that many have left the kscapes idea to purchase through iTunes.

It comes from a lack of consistency over everything else

On iTunes when Clients purchase a move it's everywhere on all screens. And if They want to buy a blue ray / digital copy. They can turn it over and see an iTunes logo and know it works.

No matter how much I try to spearhead it. There's always that call 6-9 months out from a client on vacation Whois kid wants to watch a movie they purchased the kscape/loaded into the vault and they don't understand why they can't find it. Then the question why does my appletv at >$200 do it and my $$$$ Kscape can't.

Kscape it's hit/miss and the clients who have the means and are interested don't have time to deal with it. Why one movie they buy through Kscape populated to ultraviolet but others don't. Or why some blue rays They buy populate into Kscape and some don't.

I have faith and hope they will figure out a consistent solution and understand many clients have multiple homes and travel. Moveis need to be available across all screens consistently or not at all. Which is why I continue to sell it. But hat issue will only grown with the mass marketing apple will do.

 

[Mr. Integration]

I am not sure how anyone could expect 4K full res which requires 18Gbps over the internet.

 

[Nick]

Its because not every display can properly display HDR and thus, in this period of transition, it would be nice to have the same ability as some disc spinners, such as the Oppo.

My PJ is supposed to be able to display HDR but its depending on a new input card that can accept it. So why should I be unable to see the HDR titles while I wait for them to catch up?

I have almost no experience with HDR in the home, but from what I can tell, in some instances it can be problematic as the average picture brightness can be noticeably below SDR- yes leading to crushed whites and blacks by comparison. But maybe some people would prefer this.

I wonder if the Apple TV4K will support this conversion. My wild guess is yes, in the name of compatibility.

Here's the thing about HDR to SDR conversion, it can be a relatively simple operation to perform given the format of the video and the HDR video stream in question. However, with video formats like HEVC (aka H264), this operation typically requires processing every single pixel of output video and is therefore processing intensive.

This means that it may be beneficial to manufacturers of embedded devices, like the Apple TV, to not support performing HDR to SDR conversion since this could mean they can use a less expensive piece of hardware. Content distributors can fix the problem instead by providing both HDR and SDR versions of the content. For example, maybe the Apple TV will stream one URL for the HDR version of a movie and a different URL for an SDR stream if your TV doesn't support HDR.

There is the trade-off of the extra cost to content providers to host additional versions of their content versus the extra cost to device manufacturers to support the conversion. Personally, given the fact that Apple likely plans to sell a great many Apple TVs, I think it's more likely that Apple doesn't support SDR to HDR conversion on the device itself, since that they can have better margins on the 4K Apple TV.

 

[Nick]

Here's the thing about HDR to SDR conversion, it can be a relatively simple operation to perform given the format of the video and the HDR video stream in question. However, with video formats like HEVC (aka H264 - oops, meant H265), this operation typically requires processing every single pixel of output video and is therefore processing intensive.

This means that it may be beneficial to manufacturers of embedded devices, like the Apple TV, to not support performing HDR to SDR conversion since this could mean they can use a less expensive piece of hardware. Content distributors can fix the problem instead by providing both HDR and SDR versions of the content. For example, maybe the Apple TV will stream one URL for the HDR version of a movie and a different URL for an SDR stream if your TV doesn't support HDR.

There is the trade-off of the extra cost to content providers to host additional versions of their content versus the extra cost to device manufacturers to support the conversion. Personally, given the fact that Apple likely plans to sell a great many Apple TVs, I think it's more likely that Apple doesn't support SDR to HDR conversion on the device itself, since that they can have better margins on the 4K Apple TV.

With that said, it is relevant that Dolby Vision supports encoding HDR in a way that may be decoded for SDR as well (if the stream is authored for this), without performing a costly conversion. So this whole question of whether or not the Apple TV will support the conversion is actually a non-issue for DV content most likely.

In any case, I do expect that JerryL is correct in the sense that Apple will ensure their customers don't need to worry about whether or not their TV supports HDR.

 

[JerryL]

Great thoughts guys.

I think scr3wlo0se makes a valid point- of which I am sure Kaleidescape is aware.

My own opinion, as much as I am a Kaleidescape enthusiast-- so thats the disclaimer-- I think for most people the convenience of the streaming devices + the "good enough" factor = thats the easy and relatively low cost choice. Think for a moment back to the days of disc players. The player alone could be several hundred dollars. Now you can get some streaming devices for ¼ the price!

I agree with Mr. Integration that the bandwidth means you will not get the full quality we here prize. But, alas, we are tiny tiny tiny slice of the market. Which is probably why we don't have some super easy transferable rights.

Speaking for myself, I hate all these UV etc services, because its too many things to keep track of. I find it very annoying.

Combing back to the point Nick you make, you are right. I think my new Lumagen processor can do this conversion, but Im not sure if its enabled yet. I did look in the menus and I think they allow you to actually tweak or customize how the conversion works.

My point with Kaleidescape having this ability falls into the point about having access to the movies. So now we have a movie store with more UHD/4K (whatever you want to call it) content, but a large amount of that is HDR and if you have a projector or display that doesn't support it, now you cannot watch it.

We will find out if I am right or wrong on Apple, but if I am right, then a potential customer comes along and will rightly notice that Kaleidescape is not only content limited in a straight up comparison, their device can't even do this conversion meant to assist those who might like it.

It just makes it a tough sell. We have less and less time these days, so having content in multiple places is simply what we are used to. And when you turn on your large projector / screen you don't want to sit there and wonder- gee, I spent all this money for..... {sound of crickets}...

I think Apple will do it because it falls in with their "just works" ethos. And if they charge more than Google then the market will probably not mind.

 

[HiFiGuy1]

Bringing on more studios, and having more of the studios that are on board actually allow UV consistently across all their titles, will make much of this issue moot. If those two things would happen, I could use my Rokus for "good enough" casual viewing, and the need for the Apple TV 4K would be essentially non-existent in my household. When I want to watch something in its full cinematic glory in my theater, I could fire up the Kaleidescape. The synergy and cooperation among K and the studios and UV need to be more thoroughly developed.

 

[JerryL]

There was an article about the Apple TV 4K and it showed all the possible outputs and it does **appear** that they will support HDR->SDR. I'm curious to know if this is correct or not.

 

[audioguy123]

This is my prospective as an fan, owner and dealer.

Well it's easy to show and tell clients the experience they get with Kscape in the showroom and in the home. Devices like the new AppleTV make after install a frustration. I have countless systems with clients that have little issue with cost. But the frustrations with content on the kscape verses appletv get so challenging that many have left the kscapes idea to purchase through iTunes.

It comes from a lack of consistency over everything else

On iTunes when Clients purchase a move it's everywhere on all screens. And if They want to buy a blue ray / digital copy. They can turn it over and see an iTunes logo and know it works.

No matter how much I try to spearhead it. There's always that call 6-9 months out from a client on vacation Whois kid wants to watch a movie they purchased the kscape/loaded into the vault and they don't understand why they can't find it. Then the question why does my appletv at >$200 do it and my $$$$ Kscape can't.

Kscape it's hit/miss and the clients who have the means and are interested don't have time to deal with it. Why one movie they buy through Kscape populated to ultraviolet but others don't. Or why some blue rays They buy populate into Kscape and some don't.

I have faith and hope they will figure out a consistent solution and understand many clients have multiple homes and travel. Moveis need to be available across all screens consistently or not at all. Which is why I continue to sell it. But hat issue will only grown with the mass marketing apple will do.

K's inability to provide timely (as in equal to Amazon) availability of 4K films AND the comprable audio as Amazon (3D DTS or Dolby) AND all studios is why I hav yet to pull the trigger for a Strato to add to my Alto. I understand that some or all of this is out of their control. That said, I operate under the philosophy of: "Don't let your problem become my problem" and that's what they have done. They chose to NOT provide a DV700 eqivalent for the Strato to provide a temporary solution to buy time to get their ducks in a row!!

For me, Apple is not their competitor, shiny discs are. And when someone eventually solves the decryption problem on these discs (they will)and if K doesn't solve my concerns above, a DIY solution will be their competitor ... for me!!

 

[JohnJ]

K's inability to provide timely (as in equal to Amazon) availability of 4K films AND the comprable audio as Amazon (3D DTS or Dolby) AND all studios is why I hav yet to pull the trigger for a Strato to add to my Alto. I understand that some or all of this is out of their control. That said, I operate under the philosophy of: "Don't let your problem become my problem" and that's what they have done. They chose to NOT provide a DV700 eqivalent for the Strato to provide a temporary solution to buy time to get their ducks in a row!!

For me, Apple is not their competitor, shiny discs are. And when someone eventually solves the decryption problem on these discs (they will)and if K doesn't solve my concerns above, a DIY solution will be their competitor ... for me!!

Keep in mind that Sony des not put Dolby Atmos/DTS:X soundtracks on their HD releases - only on their 4K releases so if you are interested in the best audio you need to switch to 4K one way or another for Sony titles.

Also, K is getting bettter at getting the Atmos track available prior to the availability on disc. The one exception in current releases seems to be Universal (The Mummy). But for other recent releases they have been available with Dolby Atmos upon release (Spider-man: Homecoming; Baby Driver;Rough Night) or shortly thereafter (Wonder Woman).

We, of course, are still missing some studios which is your other concern. I, for one, am ready for Fox and Paramount as was mention at Cedia.

John