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Kaleidescape and UV

cinelife

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Hi Folks, I've been meaning to comment on this for awhile. Some may agree, some may disagree, either way this comment is not meant to be judgmental.

I understand those folks that have already purchased the physical disc of a movie that includes UV rights wanting to eventually get that movie downloaded from the store. I assume the movie, or that "version" of the movie, was not available in the store at the time the disc version was purchased, so downloading later is a fair use of the included UV. What I don't get is why someone would go to another provider to save a few dollars, get the UV rights, and then download for free from K. That transaction, while free to you, isn't free to K. There is a cost involved with every download, a cost absorbed by the Store.

Given that the Store is still building content and users, and working hard to develop a profitable business, one that we expect will be there in the future to support Encore owners, why would we want to jeopardize that by not supporting the Store with the initial purchase?

I think it's important to recognize that although there is a profit in the hardware, it's the Store that's the business focus going forward. What would happen if the Store wasn't successful?

These are my comments and concerns, not Kaleidescape's, and again I'm not being judgmental here, I understand money is involved in purchasing movies, but money was involved in hardware as well.

Best!

Jim
 
Jim,

I understand what you are saying. IMHO Kaliedescape needs to be very sensitive to they people who will spend money to support them. $35 to for a movie with no physical backup is a bit high. It is more concerning when this is called an "upgrade" when it is the same if it was never purchased. There are several cliches' that come to mind...most apprporiate are " You can sheer a sheep many times but skin him only once" and "pigs get fat hogs get butchered"

We all have significant investments into Kaliedescape, but that means we are also a part of the family.

Just my .02
 
I haven't bought in yet and this purchasing/portability stuff is a big reason why. Movies Anywhere specifically.

Buying content from K, sometimes at $36.99 a pop, when that content is isolated to their platform is a poor proposition if you're not ultra wealthy. In my family/household media use and consumption, I really want that content to port out to iTunes.

That said, I understand their need for revenue for the service they provide. If K had MA, and I had the option to buy from iTunes for $X or from K for $X plus some reasonable delta, I would intend to give K that money. If those deltas sit at $4.99 vs. $36.99 though too often, that is harder to accept.
 
Jim, thanks for sharing your concerns. This is something I've thought a lot about as well and is an interesting topic.

First, if the store did not support UV, I never would have bought a K system. I had already acquired a substantial digital library from redeeming UV codes from Blu-rays, purchasing directly on Vudu, and converting most of my huge DVD collection using D2D. Having a library of movies all ready to go was a driving force in purchasing the hardware.

With that said, I completely agree that we need to support the K Store. I do think that K could be a little more competitive on their pricing though.

I don't know what CDN K is using (or if they even use one) but if we do some rough back of the napkin math, the cost of downloads has got to be enormous for them. Using AWS CloudFront pricing, even at the highest tier, which I doubt they hit, a 50GB Blu-ray download would cost $1. That really adds up quick.

So here's a wild idea. What if K systems worked in a peer-to-peer model to distribute movie downloads? This could save K a tremendous amount of money on download costs. You could also take it a step further where if it was an opt-in, users could get store credit for the amount of data they upload. For example, for each 100GB you upload to other users, you get $1 in store credit.

Microsoft actually uses this "Delivery Optimization" model for Windows Updates: "When Windows downloads an update or app using Delivery Optimization, it will look for other PCs on your local network (or from the Internet, depending on your settings) that have already downloaded that update or app. Windows doesn’t download the entire file from one place. Instead, the download is broken down into smaller parts. Windows then gets parts of the update or app from the PCs that have it, and parts from Microsoft. Windows uses the fastest, most reliable download source for each part."
 
I completely agree with Jim. I do think K needs to get MA which hopefully gives us digital rights to Disney movies we have purchased through the store. SJ
 
All good comments, thanks guys.

Jim
 
I see what you are saying and I have done my research to understand how this all works since I was new to a Strato but what I have seen is at times its not just a few bucks, you can save 50-75% off the cost of a movie by going to another site. I try and support the store on each purchase and have made most of my buys via the store but I have on occasion sought out a better deal.
 
Interesting however there are few movies here in the uk store and the mark up is so much more than I can get else where many movies I can get two for less than I can get one from the store


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Clearly competitive forces will eventually affect some changes to store pricing, and while I do not know for certain, I suspect the current pricing model is based on long term sustainability (meaning the Store knows what it currently needs to operate profitably and continue to grow). Pricing may change going forward once the volume increases, but this will likely happen only if we "early adopters" support the Stores development.

I still believe we get a much better experience using K's components and software compared to current offerings from other vendors, and personally I want to support this company, not just because of the investment I've made in it's components, but more importantly because of what I believe is the best possible presentation of video you can bring to the home. This is not a dealer speaking, the many of you that know me know how I operate, and know that none of my statements of support for K have anything to do with business, and have everything to do with my admiration for the product and the people behind it.

As I stated above, I'm not being judgmental here, nor am I preaching, I'm just someone that doesn't forget history, and doesn't want to see it repeated. I know we are all in different financial positions, and while some have no problem with the Store's pricing, others have a need to shop for better pricing, I get that, I'm just hoping that those that take advantage of the UV system ("take advantage" is not being used in a negative way here) are in small enough numbers that we don't regret this someday.

Just my random Saturday morning, been up for 2 days, 6 cups of coffee, thoughts....:D


Jim
 
I have also wondered about this. I either buy discs or from the store (increasingly from the store given the greater number of movies available and the easier upgrade path to 4K). However, given I spend a lot of my time in the UK, I don't have other easy options (compared to the fact that I buy from the US store where my credit card is registered which unfortunately means my UV is often not accessible in the UK).

I wondered whether Kaleidescape should implement a $1-2 download charge for each movie and if you buy from the store, you receive [3] free downloads (to account for users with more than one kaleidescape system or when they upgrade the audio for example) but if people import from other UV providers, they at least have to cover Kaleidescape's cost of providing the service. It doesn't make sense for lots of people to buying elsewhere and downloading from kaleidescape, increasing the cost of the store so pricing has to increase for those who do buy in the store, making it even less competitive.
 
Interesting topic and one that has often intrigued me. Particularly the benefit to Kaleidescape? Of course the obvious one is sales of hardware driven by the availability of titles that can be downloaded, but beyond that what is the benefit.

Clearly as Jim points out there has to be a cost to the store in server time for download, but without actual usage stats only guesstimates can be made. I'm sure @billygreen23 quoted figure is at minimum an educated guess, but if the cost is in that ball-park figure, then I would happily pay for the privilege. I appreciate this wouldn't necessarily grow the store but would at least mitigate their cost. Perhaps SLA's prevent this type of price recovery, but if not perhaps it's something that could be considered.
 
One of the challenges is that K is charging a premium, very high premium, for both hardware and software. When you look at what their components cost, replacement hard drives, etc., it's very high. Look at the price of the Terra server. It is absurdly expensive.

Then, in store, they are not only priced high for new titles, but also old titles. There are discs you can get for $7 on Amazon that they are charging mid to high $20's or higher.

Many of us wouldn't have bought the hardware without the UV rights. I buy from the store whenever it's in the ball park. I don't mind paying a little premium, but if i can buy UHD at Vudu for $15 vs. waiting an extra two weeks for it to show up in the K store and then pay $10 more, I'm going to buy on Vudu.

Red Sparrow -- 14.99 vs 24.99 (HD)
Maze Runner: Death Cure -- 14.99 vs 24.99 (HD)
Black Panther -- 19.99/24.99 vs. 26.99/33.99 (HD/UHD)

Those are a few recent titles. So, they are charging between 1/3 and 2/3 premium. When it's close, and they have it in the store, I always buy on the store. With a borderline movie like Red Sparrow that's also ten dollars more (on top of the $10 I paid K to store that movie on a Terra), I'm likely going to buy it on Vudu.

In addition, they need to get their act together on early releases, specifically HD vs UHD. I've twice gotten burned by buying an early release and not paying attention and not realizing they did the early release on UHD and on HD it was a pre-order and then I had to tell my wife, "sorry, Kaleidescape only released the UHD early and we don't have a Strato, but we should be able to watch it in two weeks." One of those two times I went ahead and bought it on Vudu as well, because she wanted to watch it.

Bottom line, if they want more store purchases, they have to get their act together. They need to have better pricing, especially on older titles. When you can buy a disc on Amazon for $5-7 and Vudu runs an HDX sale for 6.99 (sometimes $4.99) and we check and the store still has it for $26, what do you expect people to do that want to build out their old library?

These other places run sales, and K almost never runs sales. The occasional Disney sale.

I know you say that once volume comes up, K will reduce price. That's not the way the world works. First, if K gets the volume at the higher prices, they are never going to voluntarily give away x% of profits by starting to lower prices. They will say, "we are at a price point that our customers will accept." Second, they aren't going to increase sales when they are often 50 to 70% higher than other places you can purchase movies, they are going to continue to see a significant number of movie purchases elsewhere.

One final thought, the CEO (owner or whatever) a couple years ago was quoted saying how he wanted to bring K mainstream and not just a niche player for high end enthusiasts. While the price of their components (Alto, Strato and Cinema One) are certainly lower but still expensive, especially the storage component, their movie prices are full retail, when NOBODY but A/V integrator charge full retail anymore in this world.

So, let's take the Terra. We are paying $10 per HD movie just for storage. Then, they want us to pay $10 above the competition for movie in the K store. So, now that $25 movie from the K store is really $35 when you calculate the storage cost (forgetting the base Alto/Strato cost).

So, while I appreciate your point and why you are attempting to shame people into buying on the store, because we ALL want them to stay in business, right now K wants to have their cake (absurdly expensive hardware) and eat it (absurdly expensive movie prices). If they want purchases of either side to increase, then they are going to have to have more reasonable pricing on one side or the other.

This is even more true when you look at the higher broadband speeds and the quality gap closing between a streamed UHD vs. K scape HD. It is reaching the point that without an A/B comparison, the UHD stream is damn good. You don't get the banding you see on streamed HD. I'm watching this on a 126" wide screen in an Erskine theater, using a Sony to zoom, so if there is an imperfection, it's visible and with streamed UHD it's hard to spot.

I still think the sound is better on the K, BUT when I have to choose between a compressed Atmos track on a streamed UHD or a non Atmos track on K HD, I'm going Atmos and streamed, but of course when the choice is K's uncompressed audio vs. Vudu's compressed Dolby Digital+, I'm going K, but again the gap is closing, because most major titles are UHD with Atmos on Vudu and the norm is becoming $14.99 or $19.99 for the Vudu UHD (a few studios are higher, but most are now the lower price).

So, I hear where you are coming from, but it's not quite as simple as you make it out and the burden isn't just on us the consumer, K needs to get their act together and be more competitive.

Again, going back to the Terra, they charge $5k to go from the 24 TB to 40 TB. Seriously, $2500 for each 8TB drive? Don't ask us to pay these absurd prices, not just for base components, but also for hard drive upgrades, and then ask us to pay $10 extra for the movies we buy from K.
 
Wait, What!?

This is how Ultraviolet works.

“UltraViolet is a way to collect, access, and enjoy your movies and TV shows in the cloud. When you buy a movie or TV show from the Kaleidescape Movie Store that is UltraViolet-enabled, it is automatically added to your UltraViolet Library. You can stream these titles over the Internet or download them for offline viewing to a variety of connected devices using participating services that support UltraViolet. For more information about UltraViolet, please visit http://myuv.com/faq.”

Any comments about where you get your digital rights and or how much cloud storage should be or is explained on the Kaleidescape help page.
 
The day I heard that Kaleidescape had closed their doors was such a shock and made me realize how much I enjoyed my Kaleidescape system that I vowed to never regret paying more for movies from K. And I never have regretted paying extra since then.

Thanks Jim for the reminder.

John
 
The day I heard that Kaleidescape had closed their doors was such a shock and made me realize how much I enjoyed my Kaleidescape system that I vowed to never regret paying more for movies from K. And I never have regretted paying extra since then.

Thanks Jim for the reminder.

John

John, I couldn't have said it better myself, I fully agree.

Owner of 5 different systems you can imagine that the shock was huge, I remember opening a Grey Goose bottle and trying to find a way to tell my wife.... I then bought few movies that I anyway wanted in my library and started downloading my entire library to another system while hoping that things will work out. And they did so I didn't have to tell to my wife.. :D WAF is really really low.....

I occasionally buy few movies from Vudu, mostly older ones when they are on sale. I guess though that double dipping for some NBC and Fox(buying from K but also buying the BR disk for movies missing immersive audio* to watch at my main HT room) or most of the recent Marvel & Disney 4K tittles hugely compensates for it.

I appreciate movie portability as I travel quite extensively so I am really looking forward for K joining MA. That definitely doesn't mean that I will buy everything from there just to save few $$ as I am simply not buying the same product.

Kostas

*This is my biggest complaint but I know that the studios are to blame. I'd simply wish for K to communicate on whether they is a chance to get the full package one day or not. There are ways to communicate without committing and I know that the latter is something that K avoids.
 
Many of us spend hundreds of dollars a month on the store because we all love movies.

Here is what I do.

I buy almost all major UHD/HDR releases as pre-orders and every week is like my birthday.
I bought all the digital offers for my DVDs/BD Discs thru the Alto.
I buy the $5 Vudu UV movies when they pop up.
I buy the $2-5 digital offers, via Vudu on UV compatible Discs where K wanted $15+.
I am in the process of buying all the UHD digital offers from K.
I am in the process of buying all non-UV movies that I would watch again from K that I have on disc, because the total cost of the movies I want to rewatch is less than a DV700.

Despite what sources I get my digital rights, here is what the store gives us:
Preset scenes
No FBI warnings
No ads
Song indices on music and movie releases
Near unlimited cloud back up
Movie location information— start, main title , credits for lighting or other automation.

No other product offers these features to level of convienence and reliability that I have learned to trust from Kaleidescape.

So what is the messaging here? What *should* we be doing?
 
This is a chicken and the egg thing. Kaliedescape needs to expand their base to become a player to the movie studios. In order to do this the entry price must go down. Because the base is not huge they cant make it up in volume. IMHO they either need to make a very low cost of entry or maybe even a lease to own. It is still a big jump for 300 for a 4K BR player to 5K. If there was a entry level Strato at let's say 2000 it becomes a no brainer for even mildy affluent buyers. Then the movies store volume increases and then they get better pricing and better content. We all know that once you have a kaliedscape it is hard to get rid of or stop adding. We just need to get more untis in the field
 
I agree on the above points. When you have a triangle of expensive hardware, expensive content, and a fairly locked content library, your base has to be wealthier folks who can absorb those costs. Especially to not mind double buying content in many cases if they maintain a high quality/home use library and a portable library.

At some point, a strategic change is needed if they are serious to broaden the base. That change surely will come with some risk though.

Competition is getting stronger. Apple streams UHD content at like 30+ Mbps now and support Dolby Vision and HD content at ~15Mbps with all kinds of other content in a single $180 box. So many articles and videos around the web comparing Apple streams to UHD disc and coming out saying a difference is there, but is small (on most titles anyway). There's a lot of expectation that tomorrow they announce Atmos and hopefully increase the audio quality of their streams. I wouldn't be surprised if they also announce Disney UHD content tomorrow too. Apple runs sales on a wide array of movies every single week, new releases are $19.99 and go on sale quickly, plus they have rentals.

This is really hard to compete against with the mainstream and gets harder with each improvement. I could understand in the end if K doesn't try and focuses on being a niche business model only.
 
The message is that if we want the Store (and in turn K) to succeed we should all be buying from the Store as much as possible.

That’s what I thought, It was good to read it from another user in succinct terms. :D

No one can make a legal 10TB movie server with UHD playback, has control system integration and includes cloud storage/backup for your movie collection for $6000 MSRP.

If your requirements are to do the above the Strato is a cost effective/Time saving solution.
 
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