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K Music Player with a 3rd Party DAC

Anyone have experience using an outboard DAC with the Music Player to run a High End audio system? If so, what improvements have you seen in the audio from using the digital out on the K Player and what DAC's have you been pleased with? My DAC is the EMM Labs DAC6 SE and it only has an AES input for PCM. I am looking for another DAC to try with my K'scape system that accepts SPDIF. Thanks

Clay
 
Hi Clay. I run my K movie player (it also plays music) into my Meridian 861 and on to my Meridian 8000 digital speakers and my unscientific opinion is for rock music I can't really hear any difference from this vs the Meridian 800 CD/DVD source. With jazz or orchestral music I feel there is a little bit more air to the sound with the 800 but honestly, not much and I rarely use the 800 because the ease and power of the K system. I wish you luck in finding the right DAC or perhaps a convertor.
 
Thanks JerryL--Yes I am looking at a HOSA converter as an interim step to test the outboard DAC notion. I have begged the K engineers at the shows for a high end audio solution; but alas, they are unresponsive to my overtures. Thanks for the feedback on the Meridian--

Clay
 
My guess is the K system won't really be at the top of most audiophile's list of gear and hence it doesn't make sense for K to deploy their resources there. I should have added that I find the audio quality to be a drop better than my homemade Mac Pro server I was using to feed music for convenience. I think if you poke around you will be able to find companies who could modify the K player for you but of course you will be voiding your K warranty on that player. You might still decide its worth it in your case. Let us know how it goes.
 
Poor Sound Quality of Music Player

I believe I got to the bottom of this issue with the K'scape reps at CEDIA. After I explained the how poor the sound quality was from the K'scape Music Player in a high end audio system using quality outboard DACs, the K'scape rep confessed that Dan D'Agostino with Krell Indistries had also complained that K'scape "was not handling the digital signal properly from the Music Player." Apparently, there is some "digital processing" that is occuring in the architecture that alters the digital signal out so that outboard DACs are not receiving the native digital information from the ripped CD's. This was their best explanation, along with the statement that "they really don't care..."

I find that attitude to be problematic, as Kaleidescape advertises: "Whether you're watching a movie or listening to music, the Kaleidescape System is designed to provide you with the highest quality experience. Movies and music are imported and stored without compressing video or audio ? the quality is never compromised."

At least this puts to rest why the digital signal from my K'scape Music Player sounds terrible compared to other digital music server based solutions. I wish I would have know this earlier, as I would not have paid for the music license, would not have bought the music player, and certainly would not have ripped over 1,000 CD's to my system. Time to go in another direction...
 
Wow, that is not typical of the attitude I've seen from Kaleidescape. Have you emailed their support team to ask this directly, getting their answer back in email rather than verbally?

Anyone else aware of this issue or able to confirm it's really a design problem?
 
Clay, that is puzzling. I should clarify, I am using the movie player and its digital output. I have ripped several DTS DVDs, which if there is anything being done at all to alter the digital signal, they will not play back properly- it would sound like digital static. And it works flawlessly. So I am not an expert but it seems to me that it is bit for bit accurate otherwise this would not work- thats always been my test with media servers.

I wonder if the issue you have is a music player issue vs a movie player issue. The music player is setup for analog multi zone and it might be that for some engineering reason, with the music player they resample the analog signal back to digital. Do you have a movie player to try?
 
Clay, that is puzzling. I should clarify, I am using the movie player and its digital output. I have ripped several DTS DVDs, which if there is anything being done at all to alter the digital signal, they will not play back properly- it would sound like digital static. And it works flawlessly. So I am not an expert but it seems to me that it is bit for bit accurate otherwise this would not work- thats always been my test with media servers.

I wonder if the issue you have is a music player issue vs a movie player issue. The music player is setup for analog multi zone and it might be that for some engineering reason, with the music player they resample the analog signal back to digital. Do you have a movie player to try?

I have both--and I have no problem with the Movie Player playing DTS discs. This issue is specifically with the Music Player using the optical or coaxial output with a digital signal from a red book CD. Apparently there is some processing that is taking place in the Player that is changing the original signal--and this is exposed very easily using a high end DAC and audio system (i.e., listeners can tell it is the K'scape playing 10 out of 10 times in a blind test!). I don't know that the digital signal is being processed or degraded as an empirical fact; but the K'Scape guys at CEDIA related that the Krell founder had the exact same complaint with their digital music signal. The frank assessment by the K'scape reps was that the company had no interest in addressing the issue because they were not losing sales from it.

I can try the Movie Player digital output using red book CD content, but I was told that the architecture of the two units was the same. Thanks for the feedback--
 
Your experience echos what happened to me when I had an early build ReQuest audio server. Originally the company swore that it would pass bit accurate information over its digital output, but the unit used a sound card (it was a glorified PC) that resampled the audio. I knew it sounded off on my setup- Meridian 861 to Meridian 8000s- a little different path than youve chosen but still pretty high end stuff that would reveal this. When I tried playing music via my CD player at the time it sounded so good and it sounded soooo bad via the Request. My test was a DTS CD because unlike DVDs which pass DTS and DD as packets, DTS CDs contain digital code that is inside the PCM- if anything is done to the PCM- such as resampling, the DTS decoder cannot properly decode it and you get a result which sounds like static.

So naturally this was one of the first tests I tried with my K setup. In my media room I like having the on screen info so I just use the movie player. And the result was DTS ripped CDs played fine. That told me the output is bit for bit accurate. (a few years ago these were bigger, you might be able to find one or two around- if you can't find anything let me know). Now I know a big issue with digital audio is jitter and you could argue I suppose that the K system might not be as good with jitter than a high end player, but I have an original Meridian 800 dvd/cd player which was highly regarded at the time and I honestly don't hear any difference with the progressive and classic rock which I favor and with jazz or orchestral I can hear a very slight difference in terms of there being a drop more air in the sound but I am also willing to admit it might be psychological on this. It wasn't the night and day thing I experienced with the ReQuest and I suspect you are experiencing with the music player. I doubt the timing will be good for you but at some point in the next few weeks Ill try hooking my music player into my 861 and see what happens when I play a DTS CD via a music zone. With the available info I strongly suspect the music player is resampling and the movie player is not and you should be happier with the movie player.
 
Jerry,

Your post is not quite correct. You are correct that older AudioRequests had big problems with their sound cards, and even their latest units can't compare sonically with music servers from Naim or Sooloos (both of which have bit accurate ripping and digital output and high-quality DACs). But the reason that the ARCs can't play your DTS CDs is because their ripping protocols convert the files in such a way that the DTS headers are stripped from the files, so your surround sound processor doesn't know that it is supposed to be playing a DTS encoded track and so emits only noise or silence (depending on the processor). It is possible to rip tracks from your DTS CDs on your computer and then get them on an ARQ (you have to remove the hard drive, get a USB enclosure for it and copy them directly to the ARQ), but why bother? The Kaleidescape will be able to reporduce these DTS CDs because the Kscape doesn't rip individual tracks but instead creates an ISO copy of the original CD. Because the Kscape is equipped to pass DTS, it detects that the CD is encoded with DTS and the player passes that to the digital output. But the situation is different with CDs and the digital audio output from standard CDs is most definitely resampled from the raw CD data. This is very easy to show by capturing the digital output from the player and comparing it to the digital data on the original CD. I've had a running dispute with Kscape regarding the way that Linear PCM soundtracks from DVD Video disks are handled. Regardless of what format these soundtracks are on the original DVD, all linear PCM is resampled by the movie player to 48/18, so if you have a DVD that is contains a 96/24 PCM (not DTS) soundtrack, it bit reduced on playback to 48/18. And like Dan D'Agostino, I was also told by Kscape that they think that this is just dandy and have no interest in addressing the issue. The Kaleidescape is still the very best solution for whole house movie distribution and storage (though I love my Sony Blu-Ray 400 disk changer too though I wish I didn't need it), but for music the Kscape is just horrible.
 
Poor Sound Quality of Kaleidescape Music Server

Regardless of what format these soundtracks are on the original DVD, all linear PCM is resampled by the movie player to 48/18, so if you have a DVD that is contains a 96/24 PCM (not DTS) soundtrack, it bit reduced on playback to 48/18. And like Dan D'Agostino, I was also told by Kscape that they think that this is just dandy and have no interest in addressing the issue. The Kaleidescape is still the very best solution for whole house movie distribution and storage (though I love my Sony Blu-Ray 400 disk changer too though I wish I didn't need it), but for music the Kscape is just horrible.

Thanks for adding the technical reason to explain my observations on the poor sound quality of the Kaleidescape music server. I wish that I had the background to measure and compare the digital signal before I began this Odyssey--it would have been much less expensive than throwing away about $30 large in digital processing and DAC's (that I didn't need) before I stumbled on to the realization that K'scape was altering the PCM digital signal. As Sherlock Holmes said, "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth!" It just never occurred to me with all the K'scape "bit for bit" advertising that K'scape was in fact, altering the bits... This was very disappointing after ripping almost 1,000 CD's as I was counting on the K'scape to simply feed the digital signal to a high-end outboard DAC, then on to my reference system. The Kaleidescape Music Server sounds better over my kitchen ceiling speakers than my 7 figure listening room (now I am over-sharing, but I am just pissed). :mad:
 
Thanks for adding the technical reason to explain my observations on the poor sound quality of the Kaleidescape music server. I wish that I had the background to measure and compare the digital signal before I began this Odyssey--it would have been much less expensive than throwing away about $30 large in digital processing and DAC's (that I didn't need) before I stumbled on to the realization that K'scape was altering the PCM digital signal. As Sherlock Holmes said, "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth!" It just never occurred to me with all the K'scape "bit for bit" advertising that K'scape was in fact, altering the bits... This was very disappointing after ripping almost 1,000 CD's as I was counting on the K'scape to simply feed the digital signal to a high-end outboard DAC, then on to my reference system. The Kaleidescape Music Server sounds better over my kitchen ceiling speakers than my 7 figure listening room (now I am over-sharing, but I am just pissed). :mad:

It doesn't take too much to compare the data: just take the CD and rip a track to a WAV file using software like Exact Audio Copy and then take the digital output of your KPlayer and run it into a computer that accepts digital input (any Mac can do this) and save that digital stream to a file and, finally, use any file compare program to compare the two files. This will only tell you whether or not the two files are different and how different they are, not what the changes mean, but if there are significant differences (as opposed to a few minor bits in the file headers), you'll know that something is up. Now to give Kaleidescape some credit here, the issues I referred to in my message had to do with the LPCM soundtracks on DVD-Video disks, not CDs, but the problem is similar. Also, to Kaleidescape's credit, CDs and DVDs are stored on the server as bit-identical copies of the original and should, theoretically, play back BETTER than the optical originals because optical read errors and jitter would be avoided. The problem lies solely in the Players (and, I suspect, in the software in the players, not the hardware), and, thus, should be fixable. The good news about this is that if Kaleidescape ever starts to care about this issue and addresses it, that all the time you spent loading CDs into your system won't have been wasted.
 
Im not so sure I buy this for CDs. I have done some pretty extensive listening A-B sessions with the K movie player digital into my Meridian 861 and the Meridian 800 and I honestly couldn't hear any difference and usually trifield will handle something thats been resampled in such a way that the difference becomes quite apparent. I strongly suspect its the music player vs the movie player. The question I have is why would the movie player resample the output if its not going to the analog output?

Your point about the K scape being equipped to pass the DTS CD has me thinking you are confusing the CD and DVD. Any CD player with a digital output can pass the PCM from a DTS CD. The problem is in the decoding. If the decoding device cannot recognize it as DTS then its a big mess. The DTS data is encoded inside the PCM data. As opposed to DTS movies which are bitstream.

When I have some time I will play with both the movie and music players but it could be a while.

I have ripped DTS CDs to my computer and made mixes which play back fine so its not that the K scape knows from some database this is a DTS CD.

I would also want to make sure the macintosh is not resampling on the input.
 
Well the joke is on me. I was wrong. I just tried burning a DTS CD of one song and the system mistook it for a regular music CD and it plays back as static- when I play it back in my oppo player it plays back fine.

Do all of the movie players currently out there suffer from this?

This is pretty disappointing to say the least. Im puzzled as to why they would need to resample the audio. If its capable of passing the bit accurate data off a DTS CD why not a regular CD?

I apologize I really must have been remembering when I compared my music server I built to my 800- its been a long time. I'm pretty embarrassed about this- but I think Kaleidescape should rectify the situation asap.
 
Thanks for adding the technical reason to explain my observations on the poor sound quality of the Kaleidescape music server. I wish that I had the background to measure and compare the digital signal before I began this Odyssey--it would have been much less expensive than throwing away about $30 large in digital processing and DAC's (that I didn't need) before I stumbled on to the realization that K'scape was altering the PCM digital signal. As Sherlock Holmes said, "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth!" It just never occurred to me with all the K'scape "bit for bit" advertising that K'scape was in fact, altering the bits... This was very disappointing after ripping almost 1,000 CD's as I was counting on the K'scape to simply feed the digital signal to a high-end outboard DAC, then on to my reference system. The Kaleidescape Music Server sounds better over my kitchen ceiling speakers than my 7 figure listening room (now I am over-sharing, but I am just pissed). :mad:

I feel exactly the same way. :(
 
Kaleidescape and Music

I am in the process of re-evaluating the issues I have raised with the Music Player. I had a very insightful conversation with the President of Kaleidescape yesterday, as well as a follow up technical discussion with one of their lead engineers. I was called out of the blue to address "my problems" and I must say, this is really an unprecedented level of customer service that speaks to the culture of the K'scape organization.

After gaining much insight into the product architecture, I have several ideas on why my initial experience with the music player has been underwhelming; and, I am hopeful that with the guidance I received from the K'scape team I will soon be able to resolve the issues that have plagued my system. There is a difference in architecture between the Music Player and the Movie Player, and this may well account for my initial assessment based on the way in which my third party DAC is addressing the bit length. There are also some settings in my K'scape setup that may have affected the Music Player performance.

Regarding the issue of 96/24 Linear PCM bit reduction that rbienstock raised, I have confirmed that this is a licensing issue that restricts K'scape from providing the higher resolution. The president of K'scape said that "we would love to provide the 96/24 higher resolution" through the Kaleidescape system, but he related that the licensing agreement specifically prohibited the 96/24 output. I contacted a friend on the "Left Coast" who is in the "Hollywood business" and he confirmed the licensing restriction as common.

I any event, I have to give the highest marks to Kaleidescape for proactively reaching out to a customer to try and resolve an issue. I believe that "from the top down," Kaleidescape has created a culture that revolves around the customer experience. Although movies are their metier, the fact that they offer a music server means that they expect the customer experience to still be outstanding, and I appreciate the effort and interest that they have shown to address the problem. As soon as I get feedback from the DAC manufacturer about how the unit addresses the Music Player output (and a longer reference coaxial cable to reach the Movie Player) I will post the findings.
 
Well the joke is on me. I was wrong. I just tried burning a DTS CD of one song and the system mistook it for a regular music CD and it plays back as static- when I play it back in my oppo player it plays back fine.
I'm actually surprised that the Oppo could play it. The DTS CDs have something at the head of the disk that tells your processor that it is a DTS bitstream. Whenever I have tried to rip an individual track to a WAV file, this header is missing and I only get noise on playback. I have been able to get individual tracks to play on the ARQ by using software that puts the deader into the individual track. Maybe the Oppo is just smart enough that when it detects a DTS bitstream, it automatically tells your processor that it is a DTS bitstream. There must be some way that processors/players detect this, though I don't know what it is. I get something similar on DTS CDs when I play them on a regular CD player: my processor is a Lexicon MC-12HD and if you play a DTS CD and skip tracks, it takes 2-3 seconds for the processor to detect that the bitstream is DTS, and you get a burst of noise until the processor locks in.
 
Please let us know how it works out for you. I'd be especially interested in finding out if any solutions that you get for your music player will work with my movie player.

Regarding the issue of 96/24 Linear PCM bit reduction that rbienstock raised, I have confirmed that this is a licensing issue that restricts K'scape from providing the higher resolution. The president of K'scape said that "we would love to provide the 96/24 higher resolution" through the Kaleidescape system, but he related that the licensing agreement specifically prohibited the 96/24 output. I contacted a friend on the "Left Coast" who is in the "Hollywood business" and he confirmed the licensing restriction as common.

There seems to be some confusion about this. There are licensing restrictins and massive DRM protecting the 96/24 tracks MLP on DVD-Audio disks. The only way anyone can get at this digital bitstream without bit reduction is over HDMI to an HDCP enabled decoder. Security of this digital stream is definitely all locked up by the studios. But to my knowledge there are no such restrictions on the 96/24 LPCM tracks on DVD-Video disks. These mostly fall into three categories: (1) music video and/or concert DVDs that feature a 5.1 DolbyDigital and/or DTS mix and a high resolution LPCM stereo mix; (2) discs that are intended to be high-resolution audio disks with minimal video content that take advantage of the 96/24 LPCM support that is available in nearly every stand-alone DVD player (the Neil Young's Greatest Hits DVD is an example of this); and (3) DVD-Video disks that are burned with 96/24 LPCM tracks for the benefit of recording artists so that they can listen to music that they have recorded at fill studio resolution. It is this last category that I have most wanted to put onto my Kscape system. These are discs that I have recorded myself of music of which I am the composer and artist and I control all relevant copyrights. As the owner of my own music, I am happy to give Kaleidescape a license to allow me to put my own music on my system.
 
I have in fact gotten my DTS mix disc to work. I will explain how. I now believe that I am getting the bit accurate data from the K Player (I have a K Player 5000) to my Meridian 861 processor.

I want to first clear up any confusion there might be over how I believe a DTS CD can in fact prove whether or not you are getting bit accurate data out of a player.

The DTS format on CD (not DVD or Blu Ray) is encoded into the regular, standard CD "Red Book" format. Any CD player will see and play a DTS CD- but to get output that we would like to listen to requires a DTS decoder. If you don't have one, and you use the normal decoder in a CD player for the analog output then you will just hear static. If you can take the digital output from a CD player, and send it to a DTS decoder, it might take a second to lock on to the signal, and then you will get DTS playback.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.1_Music_Disc
The DTS-CD, DTS Audio CD or 5.1 Music Disc (official name) is an audio Compact Disc that contains music in surround sound format. It is a predecessor of DVD Audio. Physically, it conforms to the Red Book standard, except for the way the music is encoded on the CD. Where regular CDs store the music as linear PCM, the DTS-CD stores music using the DTS format, with the same fixed bitrate as 16-bit linear PCM, namely 1,411,200 bit/s or roughly 1,378 Kib/s.

As opposed to other surround formats, such as Super Audio CD and DVD-Audio, which require a specialized player, a DTS-CD is compatible with most standard CD players with a digital (S/PDIF) output. CD (and DVD) players recognize the disk as a standard audio CD. The only requirement is a receiver that can decode DTS audio.

I have several DTS CDs ripped to my computer and I can just put files on to a CDR as an audio CD and those DTS mix CDs will play fine via any CD player with a digital output to a DTS decoder like that which is in my 861. My 861 takes a moment to lock on to the DTS signal and before it does there is a brief harsh digital kind of noise.

We all live complicated and busy lives, and one of the best things about the Kaleidescape, whether it be for music or movies, it helps keep things more organized and simple. Its especially useful with the little ones and movies they might like to watch.

Anyway, in my case, when I got the Kaleidescape music system, I decided to test it out with my processor using my DTS test. Remember if there is any resampling, it is done with the assumption that the PCM data is not something other than just the standard CD audio. DTS is encoded in this PCM format but resampling of any kind would destroy the DTS data and result in static on playback.

Originally I had my KPlayer 5000 hooked up to my processor with the digital coax connection. And the K system passed my DTS test with flying colors. Which is why I believe the data it was sending was bit accurate.

So why would some more audiophile and knowledgeable people such as yourselves say it sounds terrible? My guess- and thats all it is- is maybe the K system has more jitter than higher end sources.

The 861 has a lot of dejittering processing in it and my music tastes are kind of progressive rock, classic rock and general pop music as well as some orchestral. But my favorite test discs are Michael Jackson History- it sounds so good- and Earth Wind and Fire as well as some Yes and some Rush. Way back when I tried these artists' music the result was very good in my system (KPlayer 5000->coax->Meridian 861->coax->DSP 8000s and 7000s).

So you could have a situation where my choice of music could hide jitter problems more easily and my processor could minimize these kinds of issues.

If you had more sensitive equipment to jitter and listened to more demanding material its possible that you would expose things I wouldn't notice.

And then you have the listener. I think I have a good ear but Im no expert.

So we get from this state of affairs to the fact that I try my DTS again and now with my DTS test mix it does not work. What happened. I forgot that I moved my system to HDMI.

Strangely it seems that DTS CDs will work over HDMI but only if the metadata says its a DTS CD- which is what one of the other posters was saying about the headers (sorry I dont have your name handy right now Ill correct this soon). My theory is if the K system sees its a DTS CD it will just pass the PCM data straight out with no processing. So one thought is to get the K system to think every CD is a DTS CD! But on a random DTS mix that the system does not recognize- I just got static. The PCM data was resampled.

I ask why? Why would you do this?


The answer came from a very helpful fellow at Kaleidescape: (My interpretation of this is: its in the name of convenience and easy to live with features- its nice to seamlessly blend one song to the next when listening and also to normalize the volume for the kitchen speakers- but this is not good for the audiophiles here!)

The noise problem you are experiencing with DTS Audio CDs can be likely be remedied.

The Kaleidescape System will import a DTS Audio CD (5.1 DTS Music Disc) successfully. In order to play it back without white noise, you will need to disable both normalization and cross-fading in the Preferences tab of the Web Utility {this is the USER one, not the installer one- Jerry}. To do this, uncheck the boxes for "During music playback: Adjust the volume ..." and "When going from one song to another: Fade out ...". The Kaleidescape Player must be connected using a digital audio connection (HDMI, Coaxial or Optical) to a receiver/processor capable of decoding DTS audio; playback from the analog outputs will result in noise.

With the default "Automatically detect audio capabilities" setting selected for HDMI audio, no sound is output from DTS Audio CDs. To play a DTS Audio CD using the HDMI output:

1. Open the Installer Web Utility
2. Select the "COMPONENTS" tab
2. Click "SETTINGS" for the desired Player
4. Select the "AUDIO" tab
5. Select "Always send multichannel audio (Dolby Digital/DTS)"
6. Click OK

(This is an article from the Kaleidescape Knowledge Base
http://www.kaleidescape.com/support/...0000000LTQ9AAO

Tom Barnett
Manager, Technical Marketing
Kaleidescape, Inc.
+1 650 625 6345
tom.barnett@kaleidescape.com

I did these things and tried it again. And again I got noise using the HDMI connection.

After thinking on it for a moment I decided to try both the optical and coax connetions. Guess what- those pass the DTS data just fine. Remember the DTS signal is embedded into the PCM- so if its passing this out its passing out the unmolested PCM from the source. (Unlike on a DVD or Blu Ray where its done in bitstream).

Then I tried my music player and..... it worked from that too- again over coax or optical.

I didnt do any long listening comparisons between the music player and the Kplayer 5000 because I just dont have the time but if they are both passing out the proper PCM data then I would think they would be similar.

However, I did try listening to the system the other day when I was going over HDMI and wondering what was going on and I felt the sound was too flat and something was off and that was really bothering me.

So bottom line- there is some extra processing going on with PCM data over HDMI output. Audiophiles should use the coax or optical outputs (I prefer coax as optical can cause more jitter).

Here are pics I took- sorry for the bad camera phone pics- you can see that my processor is decoding DTS and my screen shot shows this is a homemade DTS mix. Also when I skip tracks my processor loses DTS lock for a second- which is good here because reestablishing it shows its simply taking a millisecond to process that this is in fact PCM that contains DTS data.
 

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I forgot to add one other thing.

Since my first experience with Kaleidescape they have shown me that they care about their customers and the quality of their products. This time I questioned it. I view this audio concern as something of a misunderstanding since the unmolested audio does come out over the SPDIF interface.

I believe nothing in this world is perfect- there are always going to be trade offs. Yet it seems to me that Kaleidescape is working to put out as good a product that they can and provide the appropriate high level of support to their customers.

Thank you to Kaleidescape.
 
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