UHD w/o HDR Store Analysis

I did a quick analysis of the K Store in regards to UHD vs. HDR releases:

74 movies are currently limited to UHD on K but available in HDR elsewhere.
44 releases were between 2015 and 2022, averaging 5.5 per year.
30 releases were in the last 12 months.

So, if it seems like this is happening more and more, it is.

@KDeering just pointed out in another thread that this may be related to the new "Library Titles at Theaters" announcement. That would certainly make sense, as a lot of the recent titles facing this limitation are the type that would show up in theaters for special events (Ferris Bueller, Footloose, Scrooged, Exorcist, etc.).

Good bit of new insight there; now let’s just hope that the plan is to still take care of us K Owners with HDR updates to the most popular titles.

I believe there is more to this. Studios are now charging different rates for titles based on the deliverable as opposed to package rates that were in place before. So some titles may not have the economics for paying more for a HDR deliverable if historically K hasn't seen sales that may justify the price. They can also derive their HD version of a title from the UHD, meaning they are getting more out of the UHD version than just the singular version and people buying HD versions (or getting an upgrade) will see better versions.

I still want HDR versions of titles as much as the next person, but I also understand that K has a business to run so may be selective in what they offer based on historical popularity and such.

KDeering said:

I believe there is more to this. Studios are now charging different rates for titles based on the deliverable as opposed to package rates that were in place before. So some titles may not have the economics for paying more for a HDR deliverable if historically K hasn't seen sales that may justify the price. They can also derive their HD version of a title from the UHD, meaning they are getting more out of the UHD version than just the singular version and people buying HD versions (or getting an upgrade) will see better versions.

I still want HDR versions of titles as much as the next person, but I also understand that K has a business to run so may be selective in what they offer based on historical popularity and such.

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But as consumers paying the big bucks we expect K to offer the HDR when its available. With no excuses! If we had known pre-purchasing K that K would in a few years start not getting the HDR versions when available this may well have impacted our decision to buy K in the first place. We are part of K's business model and if K is going to NOT get many of the HDR versions available then WE will inform our friends of this who are considering to buy into K. If the HDR version is not overall superior to the Ultra HD version, then let K start disclosing this information to us as high spending consumers.

I agree. K is marketing their system as "the ultimate movie player", claiming best video and audio quality.
That´s how they position it as a premium system and charging premium money for it. If you start reducing quality, but still charging premium, that doesn´t sound like a solid business plan to me.

I view Kaleidescape as the premium product they market it as and charge for. Personally, I only want to see the highest quality releases in the K Store. If K can't get the best, then don't carry it.

There's many reasons why K can't get a given movie or given quality. That's life and the marketplace. However, given how we've been told that every release means time and money, I seriously question the (increasing) practice of "lesser" releases.

You're never going to win the movie count game as long as folks like Apple are out there, so focus on quality. If HDR is too expensive, charge more for it and let us decide.

LoveCinema said:

I view Kaleidescape as the premium product they market it as and charge for. Personally, I only want to see the highest quality releases in the K Store. If K can't get the best, then don't carry it.......

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The problem with this comment is that it ignores all the K owners that do not have Strato/Terra systems, or have mixed systems (Premiere and Strato/Terra) that supply multiple rooms at different resolutions. There are also many owners that do not own HDR displays. All of these owners deserve access to Store content that supports their systems. Frankly, if it wasn't for the Premiere owners, Strato and Terra products wouldn't exist.

Jim

cinelife said:

The problem with this comment is that it ignores all the K owners that do not have Strato/Terra systems, or have mixed systems (Premiere and Strato/Terra) that supply multiple rooms at different resolutions. There are also many owners that do not own HDR displays. All of these owners deserve access to Store content that supports their systems. Frankly, if it wasn't for the Premiere owners, Strato and Terra products wouldn't exist.

Jim

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Thank you for this, Jim. This adds a perspective I was missing.

I do want to clarify that I wasn't making the case for an HDR only store, simply that the highest quality in the store matches the highest quality in the marketplace. Ideally, every 4K release would have HDR and UHD. But, if a choice has to be made, I'll vote with my dollars for HDR.

Yes Sir, I understand, and to be clear I wasn't thinking that at all, I get your point, and it's not unreasonable. I just wanted to make a general comment that the Store is there for all K Owners, so it's necessary K provides resolutions that support all systems.

Jim

cinelife said:

Yes Sir, I understand, and to be clear I wasn't thinking that at all, I get your point, and it's not unreasonable. I just wanted to make a general comment that the Store is there for all K Owners, so it's necessary K provides resolutions that support all systems.

Jim

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One thing I will add is let’s not forget that HDR is mastered at 4000 nits reference, vs SDR content at 100 nits reference.

There could be films, even UHD, where the studio/director has decided they won’t (or can’t) remaster to the HDR reference standard.

By no means am I saying this is the case/reality, or an excuse for holes where the HDR version and UHD version exists in physical disc media release, but it is something I just thought of as a potential point that I’m not sure has been brought up…..

ZeroDarkFuga said:

One thing I will add is let’s not forget that HDR is mastered at 4000 nits reference, vs SDR content at 100 nits reference.

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Actually, 1000nits is standard for HDR mastering. 4000nits is more of an exception.

ZeroDarkFuga said:

One thing I will add is let’s not forget that HDR is mastered at 4000 nits reference, vs SDR content at 100 nits reference.

There could be films, even UHD, where the studio/director has decided they won’t (or can’t) remaster to the HDR reference standard.

By no means am I saying this is the case/reality, or an excuse for holes where the HDR version and UHD version exists in physical disc media release, but it is something I just thought of as a potential point that I’m not sure has been brought up…..

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Not quite technically accurate. The HDR standard has a maximum mastering level of 10,000 nits. Content is typically mastered using monitors that are either 4000 nits (in the past the Dolby Pulsar, now the Sony BVM) or 1000 nits (Sony). 4000 nit titles are usually rare and typically from Warner or Sony, the rest are overwhelmingly 1000 nit. But even with that it is more common to find titles that are even well below 1000 nits for their peak and the average APL is still more similar to SDR (though highlights and such are still higher). The max nits represents the package potential, but it is rarely used to its full extent.

KDeering said:

Not quite technically accurate. The HDR standard has a maximum mastering level of 10,000 nits. Content is typically mastered using monitors that are either 4000 nits (in the past the Dolby Pulsar, now the Sony BVM) or 1000 nits (Sony). 4000 nit titles are usually rare and typically from Warner or Sony, the rest are overwhelmingly 1000 nit. But even with that it is more common to find titles that are even well below 1000 nits for their peak and the average APL is still more similar to SDR (though highlights and such are still higher). The max nits represents the package potential, but it is rarely used to its full extent.

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I stand corrected and thank you for the knowledge, this is why I love the owners forum!

So, will default to argument that UHD titles without HDR (exorcist, etc.) will just need to wait until studio provides the update….

Good that we have a master list being complied, maybe that can be pinned at the top when finished, or have a separate “Movie Updates” thread for UHD/HDR specific?

ZeroDarkFuga said:

So, will default to argument that UHD titles without HDR (exorcist, etc.) will just need to wait until studio provides the update….

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We don't know that there's anything outside of Kaleidescape holding this up. It'd be great if they said that, but there's likely multiple reasons.

Lawrence of Arabia, Taxi Driver, and Spider-Man (Raimi) were all amongst the very earliest 4k titles on K, all of which were UHD only. As HDR was introduced on K, these titles were simply never revisited. Perhaps there were contracts in place at the time that no longer are. Or, there's more cost/effort involved in updating these old titles. Or, they've simply fallen through the cracks. (On this forum I've seen requests to update Lawrence of Arabia going back at least four years, so that last one seems unlikely.)

For the 30 titles that were introduced in UHD without HDR in the past 12 months, this very much appears to be a decision on K's part. We've been told that processes at K require more resources now, that HDR now costs more from some studios, etc. Some of this may be insider knowledge, other speculation. The fact is, we don't know. What we know is that HDR is available on titles from the same studios and in the same timeframes on K, and readily available on disc and in other digital stores.

Unfortunately, we don't have any official word from K on why they're releasing so many titles without HDR, so we're left to read the tea leaves to figure out what may be happening. Regardless, it's an increasing trend, and one I find frustrating and concerning.

LoveCinema said:

I did a quick analysis of the K Store in regards to UHD vs. HDR releases:

74 movies are currently limited to UHD on K but available in HDR elsewhere.
44 releases were between 2015 and 2022, averaging 5.5 per year.
30 releases were in the last 12 months.

So, if it seems like this is happening more and more, it is.

@KDeering just pointed out in another thread that this may be related to the new "Library Titles at Theaters" announcement. That would certainly make sense, as a lot of the recent titles facing this limitation are the type that would show up in theaters for special events (Ferris Bueller, Footloose, Scrooged, Exorcist, etc.).

Good bit of new insight there; now let’s just hope that the plan is to still take care of us K Owners with HDR updates to the most popular titles.

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Could you a spreadsheet of these 74 Movies in K which are in UHD but HDR on Disc?
That will be very useful.
Thanks.

todo said:

Could you a spreadsheet of these 74 Movies in K which are in UHD but HDR on Disc?

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To clarify, these movies don't just have HDR on disc, but also on other digital movie stores. K is basically the only place where these movies aren't in HDR. Just calling this out as it does point more to this being a K decision vs. limitation of the film, studio, digital files, etc.

I try to stay away from the UHD movies with no HDRz for some reason the last few I have tried don't look much different from the 1080p version. I've actually gotten refunds for two of them so I know Kscape staff knows this.

In more positive news, it appears more paramount titles are being released in HDR.