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4K Ultra HD vs. HDR

S

seaninde

Well-known member
I noticed that lately when I buy a movie off the movie store K includes 2 versions (4K Ultra HD and HDR).
This is great but effectively takes up the space of 2 movies.

My display does have HDR.

Is the HDR version just an enhanced version of the 4K Ultra and I could delete the Ultra version for space?

Not sure which designation better and I have seen some marked HDR but not 4K in name (could just be a labeling thing and it is assumed it is 4K)

Is HDR always a 4K movie?

Thanks!
 
HDR and UHD are both 4k.
Some (many?) projector owners (a large percentage of K owners?) prefer/need the extra brightness of the UHD version.
It sounds like you are using a single HDR capable display and don’t need the UHD versions. You can easily delete them in the my-kaleidescape.local interface.
 
ht guy said:
HDR and UHD are both 4k.
Some (many?) projector owners (a large percentage of K owners?) prefer/need the extra brightness of the UHD version.
It sounds like you are using a single HDR capable display and don’t need the UHD versions. You can easily delete them in the my-kaleidescape.local interface.
Click to expand...
When you purchase the movie, you can set it up to download only the HDR version, or only the UHD version (or if there's an HD version only the HD version) as well.
 
ht guy said:
HDR and UHD are both 4k.
Some (many?) projector owners (a large percentage of K owners?) prefer/need the extra brightness of the UHD version.
It sounds like you are using a single HDR capable display and don’t need the UHD versions. You can easily delete them in the my-kaleidescape.local interface.
Click to expand...
Thank you for that info! I am always learning.
I tried both versions and I do see the difference in the brightness. Both looked great on my display, but I did like the extra brightness of the 4K Ultra.
 
Just to add some more detail on the "brightness":
The non-HDR version is more or less an SDR-version of the HDR-version. The SDR-version doesn´t have the additional range in brightness the HDR has. HDR is mastered towards 1000nits as a minimum. This can be achieved by a TV/LED-wall, but not with a projector. To be able to make use of the higher dynamic range of the HDR-version, you need some sort of algorithm to squeeze the extended HDR range into the brightness range that your projector is capable of (with a consumer projector, you are lucky to get into the 3-digit nits). This is called Tone-Mapping.
Some projectors have built-in TM-functionality (JVC). If that´s not available, you can do tonemapping with an external videoprocessor like the Lumagen or the madVR Envy. Another option is a source player, that is capable of the conversion.
If you do not have any of these options, the non-HDR-version is the option to go for on K.
 
New to k here, looking to upgrade to a new hdr projector, but in the meantime only 4k. If a movie only had the hdr and hd option can I only play it at a blu ray quality, or will the hdr version convert down to something my my projector can play once downloaded? A lot of titles I’ve looked at only have hdr or hd… thanks!
 
checkm09 said:
New to k here, looking to upgrade to a new hdr projector, but in the meantime only 4k. If a movie only had the hdr and hd option can I only play it at a blu ray quality, or will the hdr version convert down to something my my projector can play once downloaded? A lot of titles I’ve looked at only have hdr or hd… thanks!
Click to expand...
Get the UHD option if available, otherwise yea, you might be better with the HD (Blu-ray) version for now if you can't do HDR yet.
 
Things to remember. If you have a projection system, even one with a decent tone mapping solution, you are basically just compressing that signal down to SDR levels. The UHD version is already at that level and has been professionally compressed without any worry about whether the projector can do this or that or any other issues that typically come with tone mapping (compression). The only "downside" of the UHD version compared to the HDR version in this usage case is the UHD version is limited to REC709 for color vs BT2020 with the HDR version. Most movies are limited to P3 range with even that representing very little of the overall gamut in use (709 covers the VAST majority of the color you see in any movie/TV show). Plus most projectors struggle to even achieve P3 coverage whereas 709 is very achievable and easy to calibrate for.

I think anyone that scoffs at the UHD versions that have projection systems are honestly doing themselves a bit of a disservice and just falling for marketing. Tone mapping and even wider gamut are rarely presented as intended on projection systems whereas you would actually have a true grade with the UHD version that is not some random interpretation of what someone else may think it should be with tone mapping and whatever the projector may or may not be able to achieve with wide color.
 
checkm09 said:
New to k here, looking to upgrade to a new hdr projector, but in the meantime only 4k. If a movie only had the hdr and hd option can I only play it at a blu ray quality, or will the hdr version convert down to something my my projector can play once downloaded? A lot of titles I’ve looked at only have hdr or hd… thanks!
Click to expand...
The advice above about HDR vs UHD is good and should be taken to heart.

All of that aside, though, the definitive answer to your question is:
No. The HDR version will not be downconverted to a UHD signal for your projector. If your playback zone only supports 4K UHD in standard dynamic range then your only option if the movie isn't available in "UHD" on our store is to download the HD version and play that.

If you download the HDR version, it won't even appear on the onscreen display in your theatre as the OSD only shows movies that are actually playable in the zone you're viewing it in.
 
KDeering said:
Things to remember. If you have a projection system, even one with a decent tone mapping solution, you are basically just compressing that signal down to SDR levels. The UHD version is already at that level and has been professionally compressed without any worry about whether the projector can do this or that or any other issues that typically come with tone mapping (compression). The only "downside" of the UHD version compared to the HDR version in this usage case is the UHD version is limited to REC709 for color vs BT2020 with the HDR version. Most movies are limited to P3 range with even that representing very little of the overall gamut in use (709 covers the VAST majority of the color you see in any movie/TV show). Plus most projectors struggle to even achieve P3 coverage whereas 709 is very achievable and easy to calibrate for.

I think anyone that scoffs at the UHD versions that have projection systems are honestly doing themselves a bit of a disservice and just falling for marketing. Tone mapping and even wider gamut are rarely presented as intended on projection systems whereas you would actually have a true grade with the UHD version that is not some random interpretation of what someone else may think it should be with tone mapping and whatever the projector may or may not be able to achieve with wide color.
Click to expand...
Kris,

Are there any movies/scenes available on K in both UHD and HDR that you can recommend for doing an A/B comparison to see which version I like better (using a Lumagen Radiance Pro for the HDR DTM)? I would like to see how much of a difference, if any, that I notice in either the brightness levels or the color (REC709 vs BT2020) with my projector that was recently calibrated.

Thanks.
 
Not Kris, but here is a Script of UHD vs. HDR scenes from the same movies to compare:

HDR vs. UHD Script

Downloads (ad of 1 December 2019): 4 Here is a Script that has the exact same seen from both the HDR version of a moive and the UHD version of the movie. I use it in tweeking my Lumagen Pro Dynamic Tone Mapping (DTM) but it is just a nice Script...
www.kscapeowners.com www.kscapeowners.com

John
 
KDeering said:
Things to remember. If you have a projection system, even one with a decent tone mapping solution, you are basically just compressing that signal down to SDR levels.
[...]
I think anyone that scoffs at the UHD versions that have projection systems are honestly doing themselves a bit of a disservice and just falling for marketing. Tone mapping and even wider gamut are rarely presented as intended on projection systems whereas you would actually have a true grade with the UHD version that is not some random interpretation of what someone else may think it should be with tone mapping and whatever the projector may or may not be able to achieve with wide color.
Click to expand...
Just back from ISE, so bear with me if i´m on the wrong path.
Although i agree with Kris for users of standard projection setups, i think using the HDR-version with external tonemapping has some significant advantages.
You state the UHD version is pre-compressed to SDR levels. With "levels", i guess you mean nits? In this case, i´d say it´s mapped to 108nits.
So using the UHD version is indeed the best choice if your projection is hitting that mark or below.
But if your projection is significant brighter - with "significant, i mean 200+nits (regardless if you reach that with a high-lumen projector or just a smaller screen - or both) - you´d lose a significant part of the capabilities of your projection. You´d just throw away headroom.

With regards of the gamut, i wasn´t even aware of, that you are thrown back to bt709 with the UHD-version. Is that really the case? If yes, that would mean the UHD-version is in fact just the Bluray-version with 4K resolution.
I agree to the point that of course bt709 covers most of the colors normally seen in movies, but without a doubt, there is more to see. So again, if you habe a capable projection system, then you´d throw away another part of the capabilities of your setup.

I´m in no way argueing that everything else than a high-lument, high-gamut projection is rubbish - i just want to make the point that there are good reason to go for the HDR-version, also for projection.
 
DieZwei said:
Just back from ISE, so bear with me if i´m on the wrong path.
Although i agree with Kris for users of standard projection setups, i think using the HDR-version with external tonemapping has some significant advantages.
You state the UHD version is pre-compressed to SDR levels. With "levels", i guess you mean nits? In this case, i´d say it´s mapped to 108nits.
So using the UHD version is indeed the best choice if your projection is hitting that mark or below.
But if your projection is significant brighter - with "significant, i mean 200+nits (regardless if you reach that with a high-lumen projector or just a smaller screen - or both) - you´d lose a significant part of the capabilities of your projection. You´d just throw away headroom.

With regards of the gamut, i wasn´t even aware of, that you are thrown back to bt709 with the UHD-version. Is that really the case? If yes, that would mean the UHD-version is in fact just the Bluray-version with 4K resolution.
I agree to the point that of course bt709 covers most of the colors normally seen in movies, but without a doubt, there is more to see. So again, if you habe a capable projection system, then you´d throw away another part of the capabilities of your setup.

I´m in no way argueing that everything else than a high-lument, high-gamut projection is rubbish - i just want to make the point that there are good reason to go for the HDR-version, also for projection.
Click to expand...
The SDR version is graded to 100 nits unless something has changed in the industry. For sure if the system is higher nits there are benefits to using the HDR grade if you have a good tone mapping solution (though we could go over the pros and cons of higher nit setups as they are typically dynamic range limited (DLP) and you are just typically trading off low end performance for high end, but that is another conversation).

The UHD version is 10 bit like HDR, not 8 bit like SDR. But the gamut is only 709 so there is the advantage there (again depending on the displays capability to actually show wider gamut accurately and the content you are watching).

I have a Lumagen with a system that is calibrated to 103 nits. I mainly use the HDR versions but have looked at a lot of the UHD versions and been extremely pleased with them. My projector can also do P3 without much issue. But I wouldn't have any problem with the UHD versions I've looked at (or the ones that are limited to it already). I think the biggest complaint would come from those that use flat panels that are truly designed for HDR.
 
I guess my main point was that viewers should not just rule out UHD simply because they think that HDR is going to be the better version and succumb to FOMO. There are a TON of usage cases that would likely get a better and more consistent experience using the UHD version. It is easy to download both and contrast and compare them in a setup to see which gives a more satisfactory result.
 
KDeering said:
(though we could go over the pros and cons of higher nit setups as they are typically dynamic range limited (DLP) and you are just typically trading off low end performance for high end, but that is another conversation)
Click to expand...
Yeah, exactly. And in this context, i don´t want to go down that rabbit hole with you for sure. ;)
KDeering said:
I guess my main point was that viewers should not just rule out UHD simply because they think that HDR is going to be the better version and succumb to FOMO. There are a TON of usage cases that would likely get a better and more consistent experience using the UHD version. It is easy to download both and contrast and compare them in a setup to see which gives a more satisfactory result.
Click to expand...
Yep, totally agree. My point was just going into the other direction not to forget the relatively small number of use cases where HDR projection makes total sense. It´s just because these "simple" messages tend to stick and then you have lot of discussion on your hands to explain why this specific use case is better suited with the HDR version.
 
KDeering said:
I guess my main point was that viewers should not just rule out UHD simply because they think that HDR is going to be the better version and succumb to FOMO. There are a TON of usage cases that would likely get a better and more consistent experience using the UHD version. It is easy to download both and contrast and compare them in a setup to see which gives a more satisfactory result.
Click to expand...

So Kris, just to make sure I’m clear- for my specific example of a NX7 projecting to a 130” wide 2.4:1 screen with Lumagen and Panamorph- I would prob be better off with the UHD versions rather than the HDR versions because the UHD mastering is likely going to look better than whatever tone mapping the Lumagen is doing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Cshull said:
So Kris, just to make sure I’m clear- for my specific example of a NX7 projecting to a 130” wide 2.4:1 screen with Lumagen and Panamorph- I would prob be better off with the UHD versions rather than the HDR versions because the UHD mastering is likely going to look better than whatever tone mapping the Lumagen is doing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Click to expand...
No. The Lumagen does an excellent job with tone mapping. If you were just using the NX7's tone mapping, that would be a case where the UHD version may be better. In all my comparisons of UHD to Lumagen tone mapping they've either been about the same or the Lumagen was better. This is especially the case with older titles that were just Dolby trim passes that didn't do the best job with converting from HDR to UHD for deliverables (titles like Harry Potter, Mad Max Fury road and more). So in your case I would just recommend sticking to the Lumagen!
 
Steve Bruzonsky said:
When you purchase the movie, you can set it up to download only the HDR version, or only the UHD version (or if there's an HD version only the HD version) as well.
Click to expand...
Hi, New user of Kscape.

How can you set up Kscape to download UHD version ( if available ) only ?
Mine seems to always download HDR versions by default. :confused:

Del :)( Japan )
 
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