Kaleidescape Video Quality Not Always The Best… I found

I have a very interesting observation as owner of a K System now 12 or 14 years and having completely moved away from the Shiny Discs to K.

Recently there is talk of great the Movie Thin Red Line Looks of Christie projector on another forum we all know.

Other projector owners also chimed in and some Screenshots were posted.

I had bought this movie from the K store in December and it is available in Blu Ray Quality.

I decided to watch the movie and found the quality to be horrible… the movie has a lot of grain and the grain was looking like noise and the picture soft.

Thought maybe my projector (Sony VW5000) and processor (Lumagen Radiance Pro) are set up wrong or something wrong with my projector.

Then googled and found that a Criterion Version of Blu Ray Disc is available which I bought and played on my K M500 Disc player and the picture is fantastic. It is a whole different movie on the Criterion Disc.

Moral of the story – NOT ALWAYS K is best quality video…

Others are welcome to chime in – including K… as it would be grea to add Criterion collection to the K Store…

PS: Little Nugget in the Criterion Disc Menu there is a Note - That the Director Terrence Mallick wants viewers to play the Disc At High Volume

I don't think anyone ever said K downloads will always be better than the disc based version. They're goal is to be the best "digital" (download/streaming) copy available, and overall I think it's fair to say they are meeting that goal. Their content is often "as good as, or better than disc based content," but as you point out, not always, and that's fair as well.

Jim

I found the same issue with Night of the Living Dead (1968). The HD download on K. is terrible, while the Blu-ray from Criterion is a very major improvement. I think it may be due, at least in part, to the master used in each case. As discussed elsewhere, K does not necessarily have access to the same masters as used by some of the boutique studios in their exclusive releases. However, I also note that some downloads on K. compare very nicely to their Criterion counterparts. Now, I can hardly wait until fall for the 4K release of NOTLD on Criterion.

Wayne

Criterion and other boutique labels sometimes get the home video physical media distribution rights from major studios on some titles. Usually, these are non-blockbusters, artistic films and older catalog titles that are no longer popular to the mass market. Major studios don’t project large sales on these titles and allow other boutique studios to handle the distribution. In some rare cases, major blockbusters, cult classics that are money grabbers to the studios are licensed to these boutique studios in parallel with the major studio’s own on home video release. This was much more of a rarity in the past. Typically, these sort of parallel releases happened because the director or the lead actor is a big fan of Criterion Collection and they insisted/encouraged such licensing exceptions. David Fincher and Michael Bay are the ones who come to mind immediately. Major studio’s home video releases on physical media were always geared towards higher volume sales while spending the least amount of resources in mastering, authoring and publishing the discs. The boutique studios always went the extra mile to re-master the content with a lot more attention, including alternative cuts, several audio soundtracks, audio commentaries, and supplementing content to justify the higher retail price (and be more competitive against the major studio’s release).

Average Joe six packs doesn’t care if the disc preserves the original aspect ratio, includes the theatrical or the director approved color timing, includes the theatrical soundtracks. They pick up the major studio release from the $7.99 bin which has the orange and teal heavy so called “modernized“ color timing, cooked up Dolby Atmos soundtracks, cropped aspect ratio so there are no black bars. The cinephiles on the other hand gets the Criterion version, they don’t mind paying a little extra to experience the film the way the director intended for them to see it.

Lately, we see more and more blockbusters, cult classics and still very popular catalog titles get released on physical media by the boutique labels. I believe this is due to major studios caring far less for the physical media sales and making most of their revenue from the digital side.

In the case of The Thin Red Line, it is a Fox property. Criterion licensed it from Fox and has the rights to distribute it in physical media in the US. They decided to re-master because this what’s expected from them. Kaleidescape licensed the digital distribution rights from Fox and given the same master as Fox’s own Blu-ray disc release (or the digital master). Kaleidescape could do what Criterion did and remaster it to the quality their customers want. This would cost Kaleidescape significant resources. They indeed do it on some select titles but far and few.

So yes, Kaleidescape doesn’t always have the best video or audio quality. In my opinion, often times it doesn’t. For those movies I care to see it in the best possible audio and video presentation, I need to hunt down an old OOP release or import it from a different country. This is why I have a Premiere system. This is also why I still have a Laserdisc player, an HD-DVD player and a VCR in my setup. For example, it is unfortunate but a fact, a super major blockbuster like Star Wars is available in its original theatrical cut with its theatrical soundtrack and the original aspect ratio in the Laserdisc release from Japan from 1981. All later releases have cooked up CGI effects, different dialogs and different editing. Another example is another super major blockbuster, True Lies, I still have the D-Theater (rare Digital VHS tape format) release from 2003 because it is the only way to see it in HD with DTS 5.1 audio.

Substance said:

So yes, Kaleidescape doesn’t always have the best video or audio quality. In my opinion, often times it doesn’t. For those movies I care to see it in the best possible audio and video presentation, I need to hunt down an old OOP release or import it from a different country. This is why I have a Premiere system. This is also why I still have a Laserdisc player, an HD-DVD player and a VCR in my setup. For example, it is unfortunate but a fact, a super major blockbuster like Star Wars is available in its original theatrical cut with its theatrical soundtrack and the original aspect ratio in the Laserdisc release from Japan from 1981. All later releases have cooked up CGI effects, different dialogs and different editing. Another example is another super major blockbuster, True Lies, I still have the D-Theater (rare Digital VHS tape format) release from 2003 because it is the only way to see it in HD with DTS 5.1 audio.

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Great Post .... you are the person who is looking for Quality as foremost attribute than convenience and so am I.
With all this talk about K quality is 'always' better which I had started to believe, this was a big surprise.
There should be post on this forum - like the one ....movies in K Store on 4K and not available elsewhere... movies better on disc than K Store..
Bummer for me is that I consumed a movie 'Thin Red Line' in bad presentation... and it is a looong movie... to find there is a better version which I bought on disc... not sure I will be able to watch the whole movie soon again as I just watched the inferior version (limited time on my hand).
And I fully agree, keeping the Premiere System with a Vault (where my Criterion version disc of thin red line now sits) is a must for a movie lover.
And off course I keep the 4K UHD BD Player - for times when the Jack Snyder Dawn of justice is published on disc and then much later on K.... and even more importantly to play 3D Movies.

todo said:

Great Post .... you are the person who is looking for Quality as foremost attribute than convenience and so am I.
With all this talk about K quality is 'always' better which I had started to believe, this was a big surprise.
There should be post on this forum - like the one ....movies in K Store on 4K and not available elsewhere... movies better on disc than K Store..
Bummer for me is that I consumed a movie 'Thin Red Line' in bad presentation... and it is a looong movie... to find there is a better version which I bought on disc... not sure I will be able to watch the whole movie soon again as I just watched the inferior version (limited time on my hand).
And I fully agree, keeping the Premiere System with a Vault (where my Criterion version disc of thin red line now sits) is a must for a movie lover.
And off course I keep the 4K UHD BD Player - for times when the Jack Snyder Dawn of justice is published on disc and then much later on K.... and even more importantly to play 3D Movies.

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Terrence Malick is a terrific director. One of the few who doesn’t care about commercial success but his own art. Criterion released all his early films and will eventually release the newer ones. A Hidden Life is another terrific film from Terrence Malick. Kaleidescape has it in 4K HDR. So far there hasn’t been a 4K disc release in any territory.

Unfortunately, Art House is poorly represented on the Kaleidescape store. Nuri Bilge Ceylan’s Winter Sleep, Tarkovsky’s Nostalgia and The Sacrifice are some of the other visually stunning films and Kaleidescape version is on par with the best disc release out there.

Substance said:

Terrence Malick is a terrific director.

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You bring up a very good point... I want to watch all of the Terrence Malick movies
Now ... the confusing part... which movies should I buy on K and what on Criterion? I guess if one is available on Criterion that's to buy... no brainer.
Badalnds is available in SD on K but is in BD on Criterion... so that's a easy choice

todo said:

You bring up a very good point... I want to watch all of the Terrence Malick movies
Now ... the confusing part... which movies should I buy on K and what on Criterion? I guess if one is available on Criterion that's to buy... no brainer.
Badalnds is available in SD on K but is in BD on Criterion... so that's a easy choice

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Badlands - Criterion Collection BD vs SD on K. Easy choice as you said.
Days of Heaven - Criterion BD and the K version are from the same master. Should be equal in video and audio.

The Thin Red Line - Apparently, Criterion used the same master as the Fox BD release. There might be a flaw on the K encore. It shouldn’t be far behind the Criterion. Perhaps, worthwhile to report this to Kaleidescape support?

The New World - The K version should match the Criterion BD but missing the Director’s Cut.
The Tree of Life - The K version should match the Criterion BD but missing the Director’s Cut.
Song to Song - 4K UHD BD is in SDR only but still the picture quality is slightly improved from the 2K BD release.
A Hidden Life - Kaleidescape version is in 4K HDR. No 4K disc releases so far.

It's not that K can't do this, it's just a different master that they don't have access to. The equal or better claims are usually pretty accurate but that should be when judging a movie from the same mastered source. In this case, Criterion themselves restored the film and you can only get it that way through them, but yes, it would be a huge welcome if we could get them on board!

Their 4k UHD's are practically the only physical discs I've purchased since getting my K earlier this year.

Rengozu said:

It's not that K can't do this, it's just a different master that they don't have access to. The equal or better claims are usually pretty accurate but that should be when judging a movie from the same mastered source. In this case, Criterion themselves restored the film and you can only get it that way through them, but yes, it would be a huge welcome if we could get them on board!

Their 4k UHD's are practically the only physical discs I've purchased since getting my K earlier this year.

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Same here. The Criterion 4k releases are the majority of the physical discs I still purchase. I addition to their amazing box sets like Fellini and Bergman…

I find a little irony in the only available title on K for Bergman being titled “Searching for Ingmar Bergman” lol.

Substance said:

The New World - The K version should match the Criterion BD but missing the Director’s Cut.

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K-store says "The New World" is the Extended Cut. Is that not the case?

DmitryB said:

K-store says "The New World" is the Extended Cut. Is that not the case?

The New World

A 17th-century explorer finds romance amid the conflict between the Native Americans and English settlers. Directed by Terrence Malick. Starring Colin Farrell, Christopher Plummer, Christian Bale, and August Schellenberg. Purchase and download today in Blu-ray quality.

www.kaleidescape.com

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There are 3 cuts on the Criterion BD. There is only the extended cut on the Kstore.

Substance said:

There are 3 cuts on the Criterion BD. There is only the extended cut on the Kstore.

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This is a genuine question but I just wondered how many people watch more than one edit of a movie? By that I am excluding differences in video or audio formats e.g. - new atmos version released?

I tend to go for the latest/longest/Director cut at the time of purchase but would never think to then compare versions. I know some people watch a new movie numerous times where we tend to watch it once and move on, circling back later or when someone visits. Just wondered how out of step we are

Personally, I watch whatever gets released first, and if there is a later released extended version I consider watching that at some point. There are only a handful of Director's that impress me with their artistic expression enough to cause me to get excited about a Director's cut. Most of these are really just additional minutes that were cut for a number of reasons from the original release, and then added back in and labeled "Director's cut" as yet another revenue generating version.

IMO, a true "Director's cut" has an impact on the films presentation in a manner that may alter the underlying story, message (if there is one), or entertainment value, and most don't do that for me. Just another opinion.

Jim

Oldred said:

This is a genuine question but I just wondered how many people watch more than one edit of a movie? By that I am excluding differences in video or audio formats e.g. - new atmos version released?

I tend to go for the latest/longest/Director cut at the time of purchase but would never think to then compare versions. I know some people watch a new movie numerous times where we tend to watch it once and move on, circling back later or when someone visits. Just wondered how out of step we are

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I've watched and continue to watch multiple versions of some movies. For example, with "The Lord of the Rings," I find the Extended Cuts to be vastly superior to theatrical (which Peter Jackson says he prefers), so I only watch the Extended Cuts of that. Most of the changes in "Alien" are hard to identify, except the one major scene in the Director's Cut (which was missing in the Theatrical Cut) that spoils a big surprise in "Aliens." If I were to show it to a novice, I'd show them the Theatrical Cut so as not to spoil "Aliens." But "Apocalypse Now" is different. The 3 versions of it are quite different. "Redux" contains a huge amount of extraordinary new material - but also the French Plantation scene. Of all the things Coppolla cut from the Final Cut, I wish it was that. (Everyone complains about the morbid "sex with the Playboy bunny scene, but I though it was one of the most memorable and powerful new additions to Redux; alas removed from Final Cut.) The original, of course, is the leanest and meanest. So, between Theatrical and Redux and Final Cut - so many differences, for better and worse, than they are both worth watching. (Also worth noting, for Final Cut Coppola used the original camera negative for a new transfer/remaster. The previous versions used inter positives.)

Oldred said:

This is a genuine question but I just wondered how many people watch more than one edit of a movie? By that I am excluding differences in video or audio formats e.g. - new atmos version released?

I tend to go for the latest/longest/Director cut at the time of purchase but would never think to then compare versions. I know some people watch a new movie numerous times where we tend to watch it once and move on, circling back later or when someone visits. Just wondered how out of step we are

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I'll watch whatever version I can first, and if an extended comes along later I'll check it out if I liked the movie enough to begin with. From then if I want to watch it again I'll just use the one I enjoyed the most and that becomes my default, never going back to compare the other version.

Thanks for the comments. Interesting.

I, for one, would LOVE to see a Criterion/Kaleidescape partnership happen.

thrillcat said:

I, for one, would LOVE to see a Criterion/Kaleidescape partnership happen.

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+1.

I think there's always going to be a possibility that a physical release is "better" than K if the physical assets are created, managed, and released in a way that K cannot get ahold of them. Like for like, K has better potential to be better than disc when the originating assets are the same. But if Criterion or some boutique label makes a new master of a film for a new release, K might not always be able to get their hands on that source material. So the K store entry is "stuck" on the old master.

thrillcat said:

I, for one, would LOVE to see a Criterion/Kaleidescape partnership happen.

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In case of transfer like The Thin Red Line... can K not fix the glaring issues such as horrible fuzzy grain before publishing it ? I am not saying to make it like a Stellar Criterion Look as they dont have the best file... but just refine it some..
The partnership would be awesome and I will pay a premium - Criterion List price every time