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Immersive by Design - Lossless Atmos Music

Kurvenal

Active member
Creating this thread to start a discussion about lossless Atmos music among Kaleidescape owners.

Some thoughts on why lossless Atmos music might be of interest to this community:
  • Music that from the start is performed, recorded and mastered with a 3D playback environment in mind can offer a much richer immersive experience than most Atmos movie soundtracks. Whereas an Atmos track is often added to a movie as more of a marketing exercise to highlight incidental effects, for much immersive music the 3D effects are an essential feature of the creative process and therefore the same also holds for the playback experience.

  • Although the availability of Atmos music recordings has so far not grown at the same pace as Atmos movie releases, Apple Music's recent launch of its spatial audio catalog should jumpstart the Atmos music market.

  • All streaming services, including Apple Music, Tidal and Amazon, can only deliver Atmos music via the lossy Dolby Digital Plus codec, which has a maximum bitrate of 768kbps. Squeezing 12+ channels through such a narrow pipe results in a more degraded listening experience than going from CD quality to MP3 when compared to playing Atmos music via Blu-ray disc, which employs the lossless Dolby TrueHD codec.

  • Since FLAC files cannot store the metadata with the location coordinates for the sound objects that are a core feature of Atmos mixes, there is currently no way to deliver lossless Atmos music over the internet (interestingly, it is possible to deliver an Auro-3D mix via a FLAC file, but since the format of choice for immersive music has now shifted from Auro-3D to Atmos, that will not really solve the internet delivery problem for lossless immersive music).

  • Given that Kaleidescape has vast experience with Dolby TrueHD and prioritizes lossless audio, maybe someday we might see Atmos music available in Kaleidescape's online store?
Anyone interested in learning more about Atmos music might find this article helpful.

Comments and suggestions are welcome.
 
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Big fan of the growing Atmos music selection on Tidal and Apple Music. In fact, my Kaleidescape system is used 90% for concert DVDs and Blu-ray’s, including some Atmos discs such as REM, INXS, and Abby Road.

So, suffice it to say I would love to see Kaleidescape do something here, but not sure what and assuming it’s not at all on their radar. 🙂
 
My new K system is on the way and the existence of concerts and the possibility of Atmos audio was a big factor in my purchase!!!
 
Concerts are great on K, but as someone in the industry recently said to me, sound engineers at a live concert have plenty of other things to worry about besides the quality of the Atmos mix.

You may want to browse the Pure Audio Blu-ray Atmos catalog and sample some of their titles. It is probably safe to say that major labels will not want to take a lot of risk with Atmos remixes of classic albums to avoid upsetting die-hard fans, so that is why I look for recordings that were conceived for immersive playback from the outset. For example, the niche labels 2L and IAN Productions stand out from the crowd for their longstanding dedication to immersive formats, including Atmos.
 
This was something I mentioned to K in my first meeting with them well before Apple Music dabbled into the market. I thought K could get into a new market of high resolution multi-channel or Atmos music. I didn't think they needed to become a music service like Apple per se, but at least start looking at stuff like the Blu-ray Audio releases and such. Or even the DVD-Audio catalog of titles that you can no longer find on disc. Ultimately it sounded like it was a market they weren't interested in (surprising given how popular concerts are) and that they didn't want to traverse the world of audio licensing.
 
… they didn't want to traverse the world of audio licensing.
Totally understandable.

Next best thing, IMO, would be (1) keep adding concerts to their movie store and (2) add good meta data for surround music not in their library.

For example, the way way that the Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon and Wish You Were Here Blu-ray’s from the Immersion box sets were catalogued by Kaleidescape is perfect!! The individual songs, the different mixes, the extras… they captured it all.

Same great job with the Atmos Blu-ray in REM Automatic for the People box set. However, in the case of the Atmos Blu-ray for INXS Kick 30, only option is Play Disc.

An older example too… In the case of my 4 Genesis box sets, it’s all over the place. For two of the boxes they catalogued the individual songs for each DVD (not the extras though). For another of the boxes, the only option is Play Album and Play disc. For the other, the only option is play disc.

I realize there’s not really a monetary upside for Kaleidescape here. Come to think of it, maybe the ones that are better catalogued are because someone paid to have it done through the Loan Program.
 
This was something I mentioned to K in my first meeting with them well before Apple Music dabbled into the market. I thought K could get into a new market of high resolution multi-channel or Atmos music. I didn't think they needed to become a music service like Apple per se, but at least start looking at stuff like the Blu-ray Audio releases and such. Or even the DVD-Audio catalog of titles that you can no longer find on disc. Ultimately it sounded like it was a market they weren't interested in (surprising given how popular concerts are) and that they didn't want to traverse the world of audio licensing.
Sorry to say this but immersive audio is by far the most enveloping of all surround audio format implementations, so Kaleidescape is wasting their technical audio playback superiority by not exploring this avenue. They already have relationships with the music studios through Sony, Warner, Umg. They could easily contact Cheri at Dolby the lady in charge of Atmos Music who could demystify the process for them.
 
Sorry to say this but immersive audio is by far the most enveloping of all surround audio format implementations, so Kaleidescape is wasting their technical audio playback superiority by not exploring this avenue. They already have relationships with the music studios through Sony, Warner, Umg. They could easily contact Cheri at Dolby the lady in charge of Atmos Music who could demystify the process for them.

I agree. Again, I don't think they need to get in the music licensing business, just focus on surround music. At a minimum, trying to get what is already on disc out there in their store (Blu-ray audio). But pursuing any and all surround music I think could bring a lot of new customers to the product given their capabilities.
 
I agree. Again, I don't think they need to get in the music licensing business, just focus on surround music. At a minimum, trying to get what is already on disc out there in their store (Blu-ray audio). But pursuing any and all surround music I think could bring a lot of new customers to the product given their capabilities.
As much as I would love this, I think the number of people in the middle of that Venn Diagram who (a) enjoy surround sound music (b) demand better resolution than streaming services offer and (c) can afford to buy into the Kaleidescape system is minuscule. 😁 I still support and advocate for your point though!
 
As much as I would love this, I think the number of people in the middle of that Venn Diagram who (a) enjoy surround sound music (b) demand better resolution than streaming services offer and (c) can afford to buy into the Kaleidescape system is minuscule. 😁 I still support and advocate for your point though!
Your point is well-taken, but I am guessing that a large reason for this state of affairs is simply a lack of awareness.

I fully agree with CINERAMAX IOPH that immersive music is "the most enveloping of all surround audio format implementations". Very, very few movie soundtracks come close to delivering the same level of immersive experience.

To your second point, assuming that many Kaleidescape owners have invested in decent 3D speaker layouts, then once they have done an A/B comparison between listening to Atmos music over Dolby TrueHD vs. streaming it over Dolby Digital Plus, I would be amazed if they continue to be satisfied with the resolution offered by streaming services. The difference in sound quality is simply too great. Now that most streaming services have moved to Hi Res for two-channel content, how can they expect their customers to be content with 768kbps spread over at least 12 channels?

So I will put my money where my keyboard is: If anyone reading this who: 1) has an Atmos speaker layout, and 2) has not already listened to an immersive music recording, would like to get a FREE Pure Audio Blu-ray disc to keep, then PM me and I will send one to you while my supplies last. Once you have listened to the disc, then come back to this thread and share your impressions. I have different musical genres available, and will offer a selection on a first come, first serve basis, but if you end up with a genre that you would not normally listen to then please share your POV on the immersive quality of the recording rather than on the music itself.

Happy Listening!!
 
… but I am guessing that a large reason for this state of affairs is simply a lack of awareness.
I hope this is true, but I’m not optimistic. Quad, SACD, DVD-A, Pure Audio Blu-ray. None have significantly moved the needle in terms of surround music interest. I’ve preached these various formats it to music loving friends. Nobody cares… NOBODY. 😔

Apple Music jumping into the Atmos music fray gives me some hope. If they can‘t get immersive audio to catch on, I suspect no one can.
 
See attached Pure Audio Blu-ray Sampler List. If you are interested in listening to a disc and posting your impressions afterwards, then please PM me with your top three choices ranked in order of preference along with a U.S. mailing address.

You may need to tweak the levels of your surround and height channels to even them out in order to get the best immersive effect. There are no doubt many people on this forum who can provide further advice on the best way to do this, so post your questions if you do not experience a strong sense of envelopment while listening.
 

Attachments

  • Pure Audio Blu-ray Sampler List.pdf
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Kurvenal!!! You are missing the ONE MUST HAVE on your list. :D Booka Shade Dear Future Self (in particular Plexus 2AM) it trumps Yello Point in immersion. Please correct the matter if you are going to be an ambassador to the noblest of immersive causes. :D,:D,:D.

I will share some crossover recommendations on really getting the most out of the innate superiority inherent to the Strato superior clocking on the surround channels, as if you crossover your bed channel at 80hz or higher you will find you are not enjoying the nest part of what Kaleidescape extracts in an immersive mix full bandwidth all channel resolution perfectly clocked.
 
I will share some crossover recommendations on really getting the most out of the innate superiority inherent to the Strato superior clocking on the surround channels, as if you crossover your bed channel at 80hz or higher you will find you are not enjoying the nest part of what Kaleidescape extracts in an immersive mix full bandwidth all channel resolution perfectly clocked.
Can you maybe break that down into a few more digestible sentences??
 
I got the discs that Kurvenal sent and all I can say is wow. Mind blown and eyes opened. I had not experienced music like that before.
 
In addition to tweaking your settings avoid the Noob mistake I made; although, I will admit it turned out better for the experience. I started listening and wasn't really impressed, then realized that my music mode on my receiver was still set for stereo. So with it still playing, I switched it to Atmos and it was incredible just hearing the transition. I knew it was called immersive music, but I still wasn't quite prepared. I'm sure I can do a lot to dial it in, but that was a whole new way to experience the music. I think I may have to start out in stereo mode for my wife and some friends and then hit them with the Atmos presentation as well just to hammer that incredible difference into them as well.

Thank you again Kurvenal, although you may have drastically altered my music purchasing habits in the future.
 
I also got disc’s from Kurvenal and the music is great! This is fantastic content for Kaleidescape. The immersive music has me very excited. Looking for much more from the store in the future.
 
I got mine from Kurvenal as well, and the content is incredible... gave me new appreciation for my audio system.

How amazing of him to offer this to our community. Thanks Kurvenal!

I've just made Kurvenal an honorary "Premium" forum member for his generosity to the community.
Check out his shiny new "PREMIUM" badge in his profile, and he now gets the benefits of the paying members - expanded personal messaging, unlimited ability to edit his posts, and full access to the Marketplace as a seller.
 
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